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1975-03-17 RM Exhibits REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE . ~. A Meeting of March 17 1975 Chm Davis The next item, I had requested and the Tax Department to bring us more or less an up-date of the progress that they have made, and I had spe- cifically asked them to tell us the number of hearings held, the number of hearings to be held, the requests for the Board of E&R, and just a general up-date on the changes It is not intended that this go into a donnybrook or that anybody be denied an opportunity to speak Comm Wright I would like to be recognized at some time during the discussion because I had some questions Chm Davis Oh, well, I mean, of course Comm Wright Right Chm Davis Mr Hartzell and Mr Powell, are ya'll ready? Tax Adm Powell Mr Davis, I will advise that we have 620 complaints for the Board of Equalization & Review through the Chm Davis Try to talk as loud as you can so that everybody can hear you Tax Adm Powell 0 K We have 620 complaints through the mail on Friday for the Board of Equalization & Review The number of hearings and so forth, I'll let Mr Rose speak to this Jim Rose (C-L-T) On the informal hearings, when we first started hearing the people, from February 17th to March 14th, we had appointments set up for 2,219 people, out of this, there were only 1,730 that kept their appointments or 78% This represented 3,460 parcels From today, which is March the 17th through March 28th, we have scheduled appointments--1,442, which represents 2,855 parcels As far as the number of changes from the informals, the normal procedure is to do the field checks and the changes after the informals are finished, so, t~iis question is about three weeks premature Chm Davis Have you made any changes in values from mass reappraisals? Jim Rose (C-L-T) Yes, there have been some changes, and I'm not prepared at this point to itemize them or to give you any other information on this There is one request I would like to make of the Commission We are still having people call to set up appointments I'd like to have a cut-off Comm Alper Before you cut them off, count me in I want an appointment Jim Rose (C-L-T) I was going to request a cut-off as of today Comm Wright You better get over there quick, Mr Alper Jim Rose (C-L-T) And the reason for this is, if we don't have a definite cut-off, we just can't take care of them (2) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis Could we have a cut-off maybe, say, Thursday This would give people an opportunity if we cut off today, people would not have an opportunity to see it in the newspaper that there was going to be a cut-off If we are going to have a cut-off, I would suggest that we set it for Thursday afternoon or Friday afternoon and that we run an ad in the paper for tomorrow's edition that would notify the public that there would be a cut-off of the informal hearings only Of course, there is the avenue of the Board of E&R Comm Alper Sir, my request (to Jim Rose) Chm Davis 0 K Mr Powell Have you got anything that you Clerk Have you agreed to that by common consent? Chm Davis Would that be o k by common consent or would you like to take a Comm Wright Well, I frankly don't think the informal ones are accomplishing that much, so, I don't think you'll hurt anything cutting off the date Chm Davis You would by common consent then agree to Thursday? Comm Wright Right Tax Adm Powell The only thing further that I could add, htr Davis, is that we have mailed 2,051 value notice changes due to the informal hearings and mass changes Comm Wright May I ask you Unknown We can't hear back here in the hall Tax Adm Powell 2,051 Chm Davis 2,051 changes? Tax Adm Powell Yes sir Comm Wright Mr Powell, on t v Friday night, the news gentleman from Channel 3 made the statement that you had sent out a certain number of changes in values for three different areas, as I recall, and he said they were reductions, and he mentioned Echo Farms Did you reduce anything in Echo Farms or did you increase it? Tax Adm Powell No ma'am, and we did not advise him that we had reduced Echo Farms We had stated that we had mailed valuation notice changes Comm Wright I thought perhaps it was a slip of his tongue You have increased some down there? Tax Adm Powell Echo Farms, yes, ma'am Comm Wright How much? • (3) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Tax Adm Powell From how many parcels or how much in price? Comm Wright No, I mean I've heard of cases where they sold last year for about $8,500 that were an the books for $2,100 or $2,300--something in that neigh- borhood--I was wondering what they were now if you had changed them Tax Adm Powell In the area, the best I can recall, from $5,700 to about $14,000 now, Mrs bright, the best I can recall Comm Wright 0 K Thank you Bob Hartzell (C-L-T) It depends on where the lot is, whether it's on the golf course or not Chm Davis Bob, have you got anything you want to bring up? Bob Hartzell (C-L-T) No, just that we did increase Echo Farms, and the only lots that are still in a low value are those that are marshy and under water and that type of thing Chm Davis Those where the roads are not paved and no improvements are in Bob Hartzell (C-L-T) Right Right Comm Alper Were there any other areas that were increased in value? Bob Hartzell (C-L-T) In some small cases, some in Pine Valley, but that's about it Chm Davis I would open the floor to the Board and comments from the Board Mrs Wright? Comm Wright Yeah, if ya'11 don't mind me going first Chm Davis No, be fine Comm Wright I'll take a little while Really, when I saw this thing and all of the press coverage of Mr Davis' hearing, I felt that C-L-T had discriminated against me and my husband We went down for an informal hearing We were not satisfied with the results of it And I would like the record to show some of the reasons why We went in I first explained to the gentleman who was interviewing us who was one that I had not met before that I was on the Board of Commissioners, that our valuations some times became a subject of public criticism, that I would like to use the recorder so I would have a record that nobody could ever charge that anything improper had been said He refused to let us use the recorder We decided to go ahead with the hearing anyway just in case it would do some good At one point during the hearing, he did not seem to be making many notes compared to what we were telling him about our property I asked if he would please let me read the notes he was making on the card, and he said it was none of our business I told him it certainly was our busi- ness because we paid the taxes I asked him if he could show me a lot anywhere in • (4) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 our neighborhood that sold for the price that they had placed on our lot He could not show me any lot I showed him a lot right across from mine, which was a corner lot whereas mine is not, that corner lot sold two years ago for $2,000 less than you have put on my lot now, which is an inside of the block lot I asked him later in the hearing if he would send someone to check the depreciation on our house because I did not believe they had allowed enough for it He said they would send someone to look at the neighborhood I reminded him that the State law and the contract called for individual inspections He says, "Well, this is a mass appraisal, $6 an appraisal I said, "That price is not relevant because your firm set the price when they bid on the job I said, "Will you send someone to check my house?" He said, "If we send someone, we might raise the valuation I said, "Are you threatening me?" He says, "No, I'm not threatening you I'm just saying if we send someone, we might raise the valuation Now, to me, I considered it a threat And, if this type of thing is being said to other people in the County who go for informal hearings, then I think it would serve to discourage them from further appealing their case I think they would not say anymore about it because they would be afraid it would be raised And I did not well, when I walked out, I said it had been a waste of time I really felt that it had Now, nobody has come yet to check anything on my street that I know of since then Now, perhaps as you said, you might send them later Jim Rose (C-L-T) I don't know who you spoke with, Mrs Wright, but did the man Comm Wright His name was Leon Vaughan Jim Rose (C-L-T) Leon Vaughan? Did the man state that we would make an interior inspection? Comm Wright No, he did not Now, the young gentleman, which you sent out at the beginning of all this process who was not an appraiser--he was one of these young local ones, you know, that you hired just to do the preliminary information -- he came in my house, but he did not check depreciation At the time he came in, I asked him about that, and he said someone would come later to do it, but nobody has ever come Now Jim Rose (C-L-T) I know how you took Mr Vaughan's statement You've just stated before the Commission I think what he meant to say or what we are telling the people, if we come out to reinspect the property, we are making a new appraisal of the property We're not making any guarantees there are going to be any changes Now, there has been cases--we're not saying it's going to be the case in yours--but there has been cases where we have reinspected some property, everything was fine except there was a bathroom that was missed and we added it, and it did mean an increase in the appraisal Comm Wright Well, now, there will be something added on mine because you didn't check the City permits apparently, we have City sewer in our house now It was put in a year ago with all the proper permits, and your card did not show it You showed us still using a septic tank, and when he mentioned it, my husband told him that we had City sewer, and, so, you may add that in later Now, there are some other errors, I think, on my property card, which I'll point out when we come to the Board of Equalization & Review Now, I was not satisfied with our hearing (5) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Jim Rose (C-L-T) But the reason we held it out is we are holding most of the field checks until the hearings have been Comm Wright All right Thank you Comm Al er I'd like to ask one question This is the second instance in which I ~ieard that the denial of using the tape recorder for the applicant for reappraisal or whatever they want Why? Jim Rose (C-L-T) This is strictly an informal hearing Comm Alper But you have a tape recorder, and you use it for your purposes Jim Rose (C-L-T) Personally, I don't have a tape recorder Comm Alper Well, apparently, there was a tape recorder at the table because Comm Wright We took one, Mr Alper Comm Alper Oh, you took your own? Comm Wright Right We wanted a record so that nobody could ever question that we had said anything improper, and we took our own with us Now, I personally wanted a record so that nobody could ever come back and say, "Well, she went down there and she said this or she said that and that's how her property got changed" if it gets changed Now, whether it's up or down, that remains to be seen Could I go on to my next point? Chm Davis Please Comm Wright All right I had asked several weeks ago for a copy of the manual which we approved back in '73, and after about 10 or 12 days, I received one It does have a note on it that this is a preliminary manual only submitted as cost schedule approval data And at the time we approved it, I was under the impression that that was THE manual that would be used, and I was wondering who put the note on it later that it was a preliminary one and what changes they're contemplating making in the manual Bob Hartzell (C-L-T) I can answer that The changes that will be made in the manual are those that are specifically stated in the contract such as local pictures and things of this sort That's what it meant by preliminary In other words, all the data that was in the contract that's going to be in the final manuals isn't in there yet Comm Wright Well, I, personally, was going to bring up the point of the local pictures because the contract was signed in November of '72, we approved this manual in October of '73, nobody told us at the time that the contract called for the examples of buildings to be local buildings, and these are not local buildings, and they're not identified as to their location like the contract says, and to me it seems like we were given something that wasn't quite correct for us to approve C~ (6) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE at the time, and I just didn't care for that Tax Adm Powell May I make a statement, Mrs Wright? Comm Wright Right • Meeting of March 17, 1975 Tax Adm Powell The cards that we presented for approval did have local pictures of local residences and things of this nature We did not incorporate them into the manual, but they were presented with the cards I believe it was a group of approximately 75 cards with local pictures Comm Wright You're speaking of those property record cards that you had in Mr Eller's office? Tax Adm Powell Right and that was available to the Board Comm Wright Right I remember looking at some property cards, but it seems to me that the manual itself should have shown them at the time we approved it If they changed that, Mr Eller, can they change anything else in it? Cty Mgr Eller You mean change anything else in the contract? Comm Wright In the manual I mean, if the book as we approved it is not the one that they're going to leave with us for the eight years, can they change any- thing else in it? Cty Mgr Eller They cannot change of the schedules that you approved without further action by you Comm Wright How about the rules and so forth on the different types of Cty Mgr Eller In my opinion, it should not be changed Comm Alper Were the rules incorporated in the contract? Comm Wright The rules, it was just that they would provide us with a manual showing the way that they would price things and so forth The State law says values, standards and rules, and I was under the impression at the time that the book that we approved was THE book Comm Alper Well, there was no purpose to the book if it wasn't to control the work that the contractor was doing Comm Wright It seemed to me, and I was concerned when I found that it didn't have the local pictures that it was supposed to have I was also concerned about something else, nobody from Cole-Layer-Trumble or Mr Powell or anybody explained to me at the time we approved this, or I would never have voted for it, because I find now that, in addition to putting $6,220 on my lot, you've got an extra $1,400 for the part of the lot that's under my house, and I don't like it According to the property card, you've got us listed for a crawl-type basement, and all we've got under the house is plain old dirt I have never in the years that we have been C: • (7) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 there since 1958 been under that house because it's so low Now, my husband does go under it a couple of times a year to check for termites and things, but I will not go under it, and I don't consider that dirt should be classed as extra property Audience Applause!!! Chm Davis If ya'll would please hold the clapping to the end, we'll be able to get everybody heard, otherwise, we are going to run out of time Comm Wright To me, I'm not a buildler, and I don`t know the prices of materials and things, but it seems to me that, if this book which I find calls if you put a 4" slab of concrete under a house and concrete's expensive, that doesn't add anything to the price of your house But, if you leave the dirt and have a floor that's up a foot or so, they add to the price of the house And nobody explained that, I would have never voted for the thing It doesn't make sense Comm O'Shields It costs more to build up than it does to pour on a slab Comm Wright Does it? Chm Davis Yes ma'am Jim Rose (C-L-T) I would suggest that you talk to a contractor and get his estimate of the cost Comm Wright Well, these two work in the field, so, if they say it costs extra, all right, but it doesn't make sense to me Chm Davis It runs you anywhere from $1 to $1 50 extra per square foot to build on piers than down on a slab Comm Wright I mean, you've already charged me for the lot, and that dirt under -there is just a part of the lot, and I consider that as double taxing or double valuation Chm Davis Are you charging extra for the dirt or are you charging different for the construction? Jim Rose (C-L-T) No, we're not charging any extra for the dirt It's the additional construction It costs more Comm O'Shields Slab versus crawl space Chm Davis Right Jim Rose (C-L-T) Right The crawl you have to have a foundation, you have to have joists, sub-flooring, and either carpet or flooring Chm Davis Rule of thumb to build it on the piers, as your house is, costs $1 to ~1 50 per square foot more than if you built it on a concrete slab (8) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright But wouldn't that be included in the basic cost of building the house according to the schedules, here? I mean you're basing it so much a square foot for the price of a house of a certain class and quality, and you list the foundation as one of the requirements for that class It looks. to me that that should be included Chm Davis Would you tell us how you break it out? Bob Hartzell (C-L-T) Peter, it's based on a slab house The whole schedule is based on a slab house So, if you hive a crawl or a part basement or a full basement, it's added value, added cost Comm Wright Well, I just wish somebody had explained that to me at the time we had this book, or I would have never voted for it To leave our people stuck with that for eight years, it's not good to me Comm O'Shields Well, now, he just said the figure was based on the slab Comm Wright I understood what he said I know what he said, Buck But it doesn't make sense to me 'cause there's nothing under there but plain old dirt Comm Alper Vivian, if it's a legitimate charge, in other words, if the house Comm Wright It's legitimate according to the schedule, but my complaint is that it was not explained when we approved it Comm Alper Well, that's a fault But, if it cost "x" dollars to build on foundation, then that's the value of the house And I don't like it either It's painful to me Comm Wright I despise it To me, it doesn't make sense Now, I would like to ask one thing Are the '74 property record cards going to be in your office avail- able for the public to inspect before the Board of Equalization & Review hearings or during them? Tax Adm Powell Yes, ma'am Comm Wright Good Is Cole-Layer-Trumble going to make the '75 cards available for the public to inspect? Jim Rose (C-L-T) We will be turning the property record cards over to the County as soon as the hearings are finished Comm Wright Which hearings, the informal or Jim Rose (C-L-T) The informal hearings And the field checks Comm Wright And then we will have them Comm Alper Well, if somebody comes up and wants an informal at an informal LJ (9) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE • Meeting of March 17, 1975 what papers do you have? Do you have the '74 card and your '75 card to make a com- parison? Jim Rose (C-L-T) Right now all we have is the '75 record Comm Alper Well, what good is it? I don't remember what the '74 figures were? Jim Rose (C-L-T) Well, the '74 figures are in Mr Powell's office Comm Alper Well, how do I get them so that I can compare them when I come to you? Comm Wright You have to go later and get them from his office like I did Comm Alper Well, that doesn't make sense, that's a double trip The differentiation between what Audience Applause!!! Comm Al er Now, look, I'm on your side, I'm on our side We're trying to get this t ing cleared up as much as possible Sit tight It'll be worked out If I come to you and I have four or five pieces of property that I want to talk with you about but I don't have my '74 records and you can't tell me why there's such a disparity between the '74 and the '75 charge, how do I go about it? Do I make two trips, one to him and one to you? Jim Rose (C-L-T) The '74 value is also on the '75 card Comm Alper Well, that's what I asked Comm Wright The individual information though on the '74 is not there, for instance, I asked what class my house had been previously, and the gentleman could not tell me, and I had to go later to get a copy from the Tax Office Jim Rose (C-L-T) All we have is just the total value for '74, total value Comm Al er But it doesn't show the individual pieces of property on say, if you ave four or five buildings on one piece of property, it doesn't show the break down? Jim Rose (C-L-T) If you have four individual pieces, the information that will appear on each piece will be the total value for '74 then the description and the value for '75 As Mrs Wright indicated, the description on the buildings for '74 are not listed on the '75 record Chm Davis Larry, if someone does want their card, can they come say five or ten minutes early and stop by your office and get a copy of it? Tax Adm Powell For the '74, yes sir • • (10) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis So it's simply they just go a few minutes early Comm Wright I've got a few more The law says that the Board of Equalization & Review will review the tax list and make whatever changes are necessary to bring the appraisals into line with what they should be under the law So, I'm moving that we instruct Mr Powell to set up hearings on all of the property parcels in the County in order that we can be assured that on this eight-year re- valuation that everything is correct before we leave it for an eight-year period That's a formal motion Comm O'Shields You mean 44,000, or whatever? Comm Wright I mean all the property in the County I'm hearing too many cases that sound far-out, and I think this Board should take an interest in and do as the law says and review them before we allow them to be placed on the books for an eight-year period, so, the motion is that we instruct Mr Powell to set up hearings on all the property as the law requires Chm Davis I think anyone who wants a hearing just simply asks for it I mean you're saying that John Doe who's happy with his property, we're going to drag him out of his house, bring him down here, and make him have a hearing Comm Wright He does not have to come Chm Davis I mean if we open it up, Mrs Wright, and, as the Board of E&R always has been, if he I mean he will have the right to have a hearing, all he has to do is show up Comm Wright It says it shall be the duty of the Board of Equalization & Review to examine and review the tax list of the County for the current year to the end that all taxable property shall be listed on the abstracts and the tax records of the County and appraised according to the standard required by G S so on so forth, and then it goes on down to say that on request the Board of Equalization & Review shall hear any taxpayer who owns or controls property taxable in the County with respect to the listing or appraisal of his property or the property of others, it says that in carrying out the Board's responsibilities under this law, we can on our own motion or on cause shown by any other person or on request by anyone, we can look over every single one of them, and that it is our duty to do so I think it's important in an eight-year term Now, in an off-year, if your eight-year revaluation has been conducted correctly, I think you perhaps are all right just dealing with appeals because you can assume that the rest of them were all right But, in this year when there has been so much and I keep hearing of cases which sound fantastic me, I think we need to review them all, and that's why I think the ' property record cards for both years should be available to the public for inspection, and we should review it all to be certain it's correct before we put it on the books for an eight-year period Chm Davis From a pratical standpoint, what then are you requesting? Comm Wright My motion is that we instruct Mr Powell to set up hearings on all the property (11) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis I mean, from a practical standpoint, how do you envision this? Comm Wright I envision it taking a long time, and I don't look forward to it any more than you do, but I think we should do it Chm Davis What do you envision us doing? Comm Wright Looking through all the pieces of property Chm Davis Well, these records are available over there for you to peruse at your leisure Comm Wright They are available for anybody to peruse, at least they will be after the '75 ones are turned over, but it said that our Board shall review the tax list And I'm just saying that I think there are too many cases that are coming to light that are out of line or appear to be that I think our Board should be very sure everything is in line before we allow this list to be placed on the books Comm O'Shields Well, aren't the ones that you're saying you feel to be very much out of line and everything, aren't these the ones that are going through informal hearings and, in turn, if they're not satisfied with the results of the informal hearing, asking for a hearing before the E&R? Comm Wright Some of them will not be going through them because their's is way down, and I'm sure they wouldn't appeal for something to be raised Comm Taylor Is it I'm all new on this, but, in other words, you're saying that the Board of E&R is to go and to really redo everything that we've paid this firm thousands and thousands of dollars to do? Comm Wright The law says that the local Tax Supervisor is primarily responsible for listing and appraising property, that the experts, which they are supposed to be, are hired to aid and assist him and the Board of Equalization & Review in determining the proper value of property, and it's our responsibility to see that it's right It has been his responsibility to see that it was right all along and to oversee their work because they're hired to aid and assist the Tax Supervisor, and I'm saying that we should be very sure everything is right I don't think it is Is there a second to my motion? Chm Davis Motion dies for lack of a second What else do you have? Comm Wright I'll go on to the next item, then I'm moving that we notify that C-L-T given Chm Davis (to audience talking) This Commission has/everybody in the County the right to have an informal hearing, everyone has a right for the Board of E&R, the Tax Department is going over all the values, C-L-T is going over all the values, and anyone in this room or in this County has access to every record over there, and if you don't feel like the values are right or anything, you simply get it appealed I mean, I don't know what else this County could do to bend over backwards This County has done everything and will continue to do everything in its power to make sure that we get a good appraisal Gary, we'll open up the floor in just a minute • (12) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March i7, 1975 We have a public hearing scheduled at 9 30, and if we could recess, this will take one minute It's a school Comm Wright I'm not quite through Chm Davis All right After you finish, we'll take a recess of this and go to the public haring which is, I think, non-controversial Comm Wright It looks like it would be a short one today Before I go to my next point, could I ask Mr Powell, those property cards that had the local pictures on them that we viewed in Mr Eller's office, do you still have those local pictures? Tax Adm Powell Not in my office Do you still have them available, Mr Hartzell? Bob Hartzell (CLT) I think I have them all, all that was left Comm Wright Could they be turned over also with the property cards, Mr Powell? Bob Hartzell (CLT) Sure Comm Wright I'd like to see the ones that we actually viewed on those cards if I might The next is a motion that we move to notify CLT that we intend to annul the contract because of certain deficiencies which I would list as, one, being that the valuation notices were not sent out on time as called for and on the proper things, but they were sent on abstracts Another, that the inspections were not made of the property as the law requires Another one, that old information from old property cards was used without being verified The fourth one, that I don't believe they are entirely living up to the part of the contract that says they will endeavor to maintain good relations with the public Is there a second to that motion? And I have something to back up those points Your question Chm Davis Could you explain what would happen, Mr Fox, if a motion such as this were passed? County Atty Fox I haven't examined the complaints that Mrs Wright has referred to The question of whether the contract can be rescinded in its entirety as opposed to an action for damages, there are two separate remedies Recision is allowed where there is pretty much a total failure of consideration on the part of one contracting party allowing the other to rescind so that both are back in their status quo as if the contract had not been entered into without obligation on either part Where there has been considerable performance on the part of one party, as in this case, and substantial sums paid, it would be my belief that the court would not allow a recision contracting party to its remedy for damages, such damages as it could show They being two separate remedies so to speak Comm Wright There is a clause in the contract, Mr Fox, that says if any provision of the contract is not or if any requirement is not met, that we can notify them of the deficiency, and if a satisfactory effort is not made to correct those deficiencies within ten days, then the contract is annulled Cty Atty Fox Well, I don't have, I haven't read the contract recently, Mrs Wright, now you may have the language in front of you, but I think that the--I doubt that the County could recover all of the sums that it has paid Cole-Layer-Trumble • • (l3) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 I think that the court would confine any action that we had to damages You may terminate a contractual relationship with them and sue them for whatever damages we have suffered, if you follow what I'm saying, but I don't think that it would be, that we would be in position to be allowed to go back as though we had never had the contract with them and never paid them anything and they had never done any work Comm Wright I'm just thinking in terms of the fact like, when you go fishing if your line gets too tangled up, you cut it off and start a new one, and to me that seems to be Chm Davis Poor people untangle it Comm Wright Well, it's a question of how tangled it is, you know, and I think this one is tangled enough Now, may I finish? Chm Davis Let me ask Mr Fox one thing pertaining to this thing We, then by, have you said that we're the only side that could ask for damages? Cty Att Fox No sir We have a contract with Cole-Layer-Trumble Company They are to perform certain services in return for compensation And, if we terminated or attempted to terminate our contract with them, it is conceivable that they would suffer some damage as well as the County having suffered some damage It would be a question of trying to arrive at an equitable judicial decision between the two parties as to who was owed what I can't give you anymore concrete answer than that I think that if the Commission wants to consider recision of the contract or termination of the contract, then it would have to be--some detailed study would have to be made of the underlying basis for arriving at that decision and some in depth study of the contract and appraisal of our legal position would have to be made Chm Davis You, then in essence, are saying that there's two sides to the contracts and both sides would be open to claim that there were damages Cty Att Fox Well there's always that possibility in any contractual relationship Chm Davis Would there be, ya'll, would the firm, the County firm charge us for any of this? Cty Att Fox You're talking about the legal fees? Litigation? Chm Davis Yeah Cty Att Fox I'm sure that it would be extensive and expensive for both sides Chm Davis Mrs Wright, I think that it would be premature for either the County or CLT, either one of them, until the contract has run its course for either one of them to claim that the other has been damaged Comm Wright I'm not claiming that we should I did not say that we should go to court and ask for damages against them My primary reason for making that motion was that I think we can do a better job locally going through the records and hearing appeals from the taxpayers than is being done now And I don't think that the • • (14) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 local citizens should have to wait several months and go to these informal hearings and perhaps be discouraged or, if they were spoken to as my husband and I were, I consider that they would be intimidated, and that they would not futher their appeal And I frankly think we just be better off if we dropped that part of it and stuck strictly with the local reviews, with our Board's reviews Comm O'Shieids I don't think anybody's been intimidated to the point where they felt that their informal hearing wasn't what they wanted it to be that they would not ask for a hearing Audience Jeers! Shouts! Boos! Comm O'Shields Have any of ya'T1 asked for informal hearings and then have been intimidated to the point where you haven't asked for hearings before the Board of E&R? Comm Wright The ones who are here are the ones who wauld ask for hearings It's the people out there that you don't know about perhaps that would not because they're timid, they're shy he tells them this and that and the other, and they don't know how to interpret that card, they don't know what it means, and, well you take me for instance, if I had not asked for this manual, I wouldn't know to this day that they had an extra price in there for the dirt under my house Now, I hate to keep referring to that, but to me, it's so ridiculous to think that the people are being charged extra Now the did not tell me that, he could not tell me the class of my house far the previous year, there was a mistake, I think, a couple of mistakes on that card which I'll point later in my hearing Chm Davis By the dirt under your house, are you talking about the foundation? Comm Wright Right The dirt under it not the bricks, the dirt Chm Davis Do you know what would happen if you didn't have a foundation under your house? Comm Wright I'm talking about the dirt, Peter, because that's all that's under there The foundation's included in the Class C qualifications in your speci- fications of Class C Now, that's what I'm talking about Now, if I might go on to another thing I think that our Board hasn't recognized the whole scope of this problem I think that some of our people are being treated rudely, and they should not be I think we should be aware that it's a big problem And, with the thought in mind that I asked Mr Fox this morning about it, the State Association sent out a newsletter that had an article in it about liability to Commissioners, and it said if you willfully neglect to discharge your duties willfully and corruptly, and I asked him if if had to be corruptly or if it could be just willfully, and he said he thought it could be just willfully neglected, and I'm thinking that if we neglect our duties under the Board of Equalization & Review to review this property that we might be subject to some legal action because of it and removal from the Board And I'm going to repeat my motion that we instruct the Tax Supervisor to set up hearings on all of the property Chm Davis I think if we passed your motion to annul the contract, that that would fall under the class that you were talking about, and that we be subjecting • • (15) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 this County to a tremendous suit Comm Wright I'm not speaking now of that motion, I'm making the previous motion which I made before Chm Davis Right I know which motion you're making, but I'm saying that if we were to have passed your previous motion which would be to annul the contract, in other words, to fire Cole-Layer-Trumble and let them off the hook, that would be the type of action that we would be liable for and probably, if a court found in CLT's favor, we might be liable for that Comm Wright Well, I think you've got to recognize they're two sides to every question That contract's got clauses in it that make local people responsible also And I think they could claim the local people did not do their job Frankly, I question myself Mr Powell, let me ask you one thing Now I asked for a list of industrial properties You sent it to me Some of them went up, some of them went down, some of them were reasonable, small amounts, some of them were large, but one in particular went down $9 million on the building Were you aware of that before the abstract went out Tax Adm Powell Mrs Wright, as I pointed out in the letter, this year the machinery and equipment is not included in the building value Comm Wright This was not machinery and equipment, it was just the building Tax Adm Powell It would affect the total building value '74 versus '75 Comm Wright Have you made any changes on that particular one, you probably know the-one I mean Tax Adm Powell At this point we cannot make any changes until we can audit their personal return because machinery and equipment is a personal item and should be listed as personal Comm Wright This was just on the building Can you not send your appraiser to check the building? Tax Adm Powell You're comparing '74 to '75 building value, correct Comm Wright Uh huh Tax Adm Powell Well, in '74 building value included machinery and equipment The '75 building value does not include machinery and equipment, which is a personal listing which we'll have to audit to the personal return Comm Wright Would ya'll give me just a second to find that? I'd like to I've got it right in here pretty close to the top Chm Davis In comment to what you were talking about, Mrs Wright, the previous one, I didn't get a chance to finish I think it would be derelict for this Commission to put the County in a position where we would be sued, where the County would be sued (16) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright Their personal property only allowed to about $7 so that still allowed for a $2 million reduction in the valuation on the building Comm O'Shields Which one are you talking about? Comm Wright I'm talking about Ideal I didn't want to name it Frankly, I don't think they ought to be brought into the public because of their doings I'm sure, but it's something I wonder how, how could that have happened when the Tax Office personnel were working overtime checking the cards, weren't you aware that this was there? Weren't you aware for instance that Echo Farms was low? Didn't you know that some of these others seemed out of line or something? Tax Adm Powell Yes, ma'am, I did, and I advised the Board of this probably Comm Wright I have never heard you say that Comm O'Shields The first meeting Tax Adm Powell Well it's approximately a year ago I advised the Board that we were having problems with Cole-Layer-Trumble Company and, at that time, I believe the Board did appoint a committee to meet with Cole-Layer-Trumble Company to see if we could resolve some of these problems about Comm Wright It was personnel at that time That's what we wrote them/in March of last year I'm speaking about when the record cards started coming down in the fall, and you said you were finding a lot of errors, and your people started working overtime, and they were supposed to be checking all the cards that came in Weren't they aware of some of these things at that time? Tax Adm Powell Yes we were, and we pointed out many of these Comm Wright Why weren't we told? I mean, it came as a shock to me I just I can't understand why it got to that point without us not being told about it Tax Adm Powell Mr Eller, haven't I advised that we were having problems with it all the way through? Cty Mgr Eller Yes you have Comm Wright You've said a lot of errors Chm Davis You're referring to Ideal Cement now, what I've lost your train now Comm Wright They went down quite a chunk Chm Davis Right, and that's Comm Wright On the valuation of their building, and I do not believe that a big industry like that would allow their building do devalue that much ~ (17) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE • Meeting of March 17, 1.975 Comm O'Shields Vivian, Larry just said that in '74 that figure under '74 building included equipment Comm Wright The equipment is listed right under there, and if you'll add it, you 11 see that they're still down $2 million Audience Applause!!! Chm Davis (to the audience) Does that show that ya'll approve of the building going down or Audience It shows that we got somebody on our side to help us with what we elected them put them in there for Chm Davis (banging gavel) Please, let's have order! Please, let's have order! Comm Wright Well, I'm almost through with my discussion, if I might say one more thing or bring out one more point I had said that I do not think the Board recognizes the scope of the problem You've refused to second my motion to go over all of the property, and I would like to ask Mrs Pleasants, she's here I believe, Mrs Pleasants? Is it not true that the Taxpayers Association has retained a legal firm to handle this case? Mrs Pleasants Yes, we have, and we welcome any contribution to the legal fund Comm Wright Now do you recognize the seriousness? Comm Taylor Mrs Wright, I'd like to ask you, in the framework or in the time that we have to work since the State Legislature has not seen fit to give us this extra year, how can we do it in the time frame that we have to work in without the State Legislature giving us this time? Comm Wright There's a little piece in the law, it says Comm Taylor Why wouldn't the State Legislature go ahead and approve this extra time that we need really? I think that we need to be on our State Legislatures Comm Wright Mr Schwartz and Mr Rhodes last week introduced another bill in the legislature to try to get us this extra year I have a letter from Mr Schwartz which arrived in the mail on Saturday I don't know whether ya'll have copies of it yet or not, but he and Mr Rhodes did introduce another bill last week which would allow counties with a population under a certain figure to delay their revaluations a year when it's necessary, so, there still is a possibility that we might get that delay And, if I might point out one other thing, I'm not a lawyer but this thing on time of meetings and notices of adjournments and so forth under the Board of Equalization & Review states that in no event shall the Board sit later than July 1 except to hear and determine requests made under the provisions of subdivision g-2 below when such requests are made within the time prescribed by law Now that subdivision that they're referring to is the one where any taxpayer can come and request a hearing on his property or on anybody else's property, and it looks like to me with that Tittle bit of a loop hole you can hold hearings from now on And Mr Holbrook did tell me when he was here about a County that was still holding hearings up until Thanksgiving Now, I don't relish the thought of that either, but • (18) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 I think it's our duty, and I think because of the problems, that we should do it this year Chm Davis I think it is our duty to hold hearings as long as necessary and Comm Wright To review the tax list is what the law says, Peter Chm Davis Is that the last of your items? Comm Wright That's all I've got right at the moment except for one other thing if I might It's about to slip my mind, let me find this thing here The excuse me the little piece that was in the paper this morning, the letter to the editor from Chairman Davis, he says`'I have never made a blanket statement that all values were either right or wrong'' I would remind him that on the 20th of January he voted for my motion to tell Cole-Layer-Trumble to redo the whole appraisal I would remind him that on the 11th of February Chm Davis Wait a minute Does that Comm Wright I'm saying that you told them to redo it, now is that not telling them that it's wrong? Chm Davis Is that saying it's either all right or all wrong? Comm Wright It's saying that you told them to redo it Now, let me finish, and then you can answer me Chm Davis No, wait a minute No, wait a minute Comm Wright I've got something else to say before you answer me Chm Davis No You are putting words in my mouth, Mrs Wright Comm Wright No I'm not I'm not through yet That's what you did on the 20th of January Now, on the 11th of February, you were quoted in the paper as saying that criticisms of these values were a movement, you characterized them as a movement, to undermine the confidence in their government, you said you thought it was politically motivated, you said nobody is saying anything in defense of the person whose property has deteroriated and not benefited from this boom, they're all defending the person who's having to pay more taxes, you said this appraisal helps people who have been carrying too heavy a burden like those in downtown Wilmington, Brooklyn, Sunset Park, and Chestnut Heights This said Davis contended, if the current appraisal is undermined, it will directly benefit people who have benefited by the inflation I'm saying that your problem is that your memory is either not too good or else you're having trouble deciding which side of the fence you're on Audience Applause! Chm Davis Ya'll Comm Wright So, if you can decide which side of the fence you want to fall on, maybe we'll know what to believe • (19) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis That second statement that you read was accurate and still is accurate Comm Wright That you think it's all right, and that these appraisals are benefiting people who benefited from the property boom Chm Davis Mrs Wright, I don't think anyone could say that this appraisal is all it g thth or all wrong Comm Wright You said that it benefited certain people Chm Davis Yes, it will benefit if this appraisal Comm Wright I know some people in Sunset Park who certainly do not feel benefited Chm Davis If this appraisal is put off it will directly help the land speculators and the property developers and the big property owners, and I find it ironic that the people that some people claim they're trying to help are really the ones they hurt, and I'll go into that when my turn comes Comm O'Shields You keep saying like the insinuations are that the things that are wrong are not going to be corrected, Vivian, I mean you keep talking about the Comm Wright My point is that the people in this County should not have to worry about this mess for months and months because somebody's not done his job Now, that's not right, and we shouldn't allow it to happen And we should take every step we can to keep it from happening Comm O'Shields What about all the other counties that are going through the same thing, Vivian? They're having the same problems Comm Wright I'm not worried about them I'm from this county Comm O'Shields I know, but our problem is really no different than theirs other than for the personnel trouble and the delay in there, most of the other counties are going through the same cotton pickin' thing, and every county in this State is going to go through the same thing Comm Wright Does that make it right to make the people in the county have to worry? Comm O'Shields No but I can't see that our problem is any different than theirs Their people are going to be worried too, and their County Commissioners are going to be worried too Comm Wright Well, I hope their's are more responsive than ours are Audience Applause! RECESS TO GO INTO PUBLIC HEARING Chm Davis It's my turn to make a few comments, and I the only comments I want to make, if anybody read my letter to the editor this morning, Mrs Wright commented about the publicity that I received, I had asked my friend, Miss Lindau, • (zo) • REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 if she would like to come to the meeting for two reasons, and one was that she'd have an opportunity to see just how the hearings went and number two that someone would be there to report to the people what went on I think that all things in government should be open, I think that the people who are in office should be open I find out I find that the campaign against the revaluation is sort of intriguing in that it's really a disservice to the people who are trying to be helped by the revaluation The letter sent out by the Taxpayers Association asking people to join, it does indicate to me that they don't understand the tax system or the ad valorem system and are confused about the difference between the appraised value and the tax burden New, this is what you've got to worry about The tax burden is totally a function of the County budget If the County budget is $l, it's going to have a different affect on you than if it's $100 million That's the tax burden Appraised value simply allocates the tax burden among the property owners Now, you have revaluation and I understand Audience Unintelligible remarks!!! Chm Davis Go easy on my hammer Comm O'Shields I'll buy you another Chm Davis In case they give it to me for the plaque, I want it The tax evaluation, revaluation, I understand was one of the hardest laws to ever get through the State Legislature because it is geared to help the homeowner and the small property owner You have, from year to year, you have basically three kinds of property, you have commercial property, that is in this area, commercial, you have lots and homes, then you have resort property--this would be residential, then you have land--development property--which will give you four classes This property changes from year to year and it changes, this property, commercial property, can change as much as 100 percent a year and it just jumps I don't know how many people know it but the old Putt Putt sold for $325,000 I think Mr Fisher knows how property changes And it changes the most Next you have the resort property Gary McDaniel Has the option been exercised on the Putt Putt property? That was an option, has it been exercised? Chm Davis They actually bought it as I understand, they got a land contract Gary McDanie] Has the option actually been exercised yet? Chm Davis They're on a land contract, Gary Resort property in 1968 you could buy a lot at Figure 8 Island for $7,500, last year some of these lots one of them, I think, sold as high as $69,000 Land there is property on the tax books that were in 1968 and I'm not sure, Larry can correct me, but I think there's some land that's on the tax books as low as $25 Larry is this true? Tax Adm Powell Yes sir Chm Davis People are paying as low as $25 I want you to find me some land in • (21) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE • Meeting of March 17, 1975 this county that's worth $25 You can't find it Now, homes and residential property very seldom ever appreciates over 10 percent Now, in some cases, now in some cases, you have certain sections to where it could appreciate as much as 15 to 20 percent Comm Alper I'll take it Comm Wright Mr Davis, when I come to the E&R Board, will you put 20 percent on mine? Chm Davis Now wait a minute, may I please finish Comm Wright I'd be satisfied with 20 percent Comm O'Shields Annually He's talking about annually, Uivian Chm Davis Annually Cecelia Pleasants Why isn't that reflected on the card then? Chm Davis I'm would ya'll please give me the courtesy to finish? This would be an annual appreciation right here So over eight years you're talking about 80 percent Look at this appreciation here This went from $7,500 to $69,000 although the values have dropped back down These values change I was talking to one lady outside and she said her house went from, Ithink, $9,000 to about $15,000 Property in the County appreciated 100 percent This means that if your property went up less than 100 percent that your County taxes will probably be less The revaluation was put in, and I mean it was tough to get it because in the old days the County Commissioners more or less--and when I say the old days I'm not aiming at any one group--but before they got this process, it was the little man who lot and the revaluation, but they'd add his house at the price he paid for it and, they'd let the farm land or either land that was out there that had not been sold in years, stay at $10 - $15 an acre It was put in to help this man These are the people who are going to be hurt And this is the reason that there are a lot of people gigging people to get this revaluation stopped If this revaluation does not go through, people at Figure 8 Island are going to pay $7,500 A lot that was bought at Figure 8 last year is going to pay less taxes than the lady who told me her house is worth $9,000 And, if you tell me that's fair then, I'll vote to throw it out because Comm Wright May I correct you on one thing? Nobody has said that the Chm Davis Mrs Wright, I listened to you Comm Wright revaluation should be stopped They just said it should be correct Chm Davis That's what we're all aiming for is to get it correct But your motion said to throw it out Comm Wright My motion was that they redo it (22) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Chm Davis No, your motion was to annul the contract Comm O'Shields No, your motion was to annul • Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright My motion this morning was to annul the contract but not the revaluation You have to get a revaluation for that Chm Davis There's been a lot of wool pulled over a lot of peoples eyes, and it is unfortunate that there are a lot of people getting fooled into seeing that the wrong people are getting protected The homeowner is the one who is protected by the revaluation process, and that's why it has got to run the full course The tax burden is the whole pie whether it be, let's say, $10 million That tax burden depends upon this County Commission voting on different departments It doesn't have a thing to do with what your property's worth or my property's worth That tax burden is contingent totally upon the budget Now, how this burden is split up, who carries what amount of weight depends upon the appraised value That is the yardstick that we go by, and if the yardstick is not readjusted every eight years, then the people who have bought the land that appreciates the most are the ones who are going to profit by it The thing that you should really be concerned about is that, if your house is worth half of what his house is worth, that his value on the tax card should be twice as much This is the main thing, that it's in the ratio, the proper ratio, then you're protected I don't care, you can have a value on your house of $7,000 and pay more taxes than under the new valuations than if it doubles I have had out of some of the pieces the piece of property that was in the paper, the beach lot that I have, in 1968 value, and I didn't own it then, as a matter of fact the man who sold it I met the other day When he sold it it was under water When I bought it, it had some sand in front of it, and now it's almost under water But it was on the tax books at $900 They upped it to $33,000 Then they dropped it to $7,040 That's still eight times I would gladly sell it for that Comm Wright May I ask you one thing? Is it under water now at high tide? Chm Davis If the wind's blowing right, there's water on the lot Comm Wright There's a gentleman here, Mr Rogers, I believe, is he still here? Mr Rogers Yes ma'am Comm Wright You have a lot that's under water at high tide on the sound, Mr Rogers, has yours been reduced? Has it been reduced? Mr Rogers No Comm Wright Thank you Chm Davis Which beach, Joe? Comm Wright It's on the sound Mr Rogers Greenville Sound • (23) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis Greenville Sound? Have you had your appeal hearing yet? Mr Rogers I sure have No good Chm Davis Have you applied to the Board of E&R? Mr Rogers Yes Chm Davis All right Well, see, the only thing that I have said all along is that I defend the process, and I am not going to do anything that would jeopardize this County to get stuck into a law suit that would subject it to a tremendous settlement We have a contract with Cole-Layer-Trumble It was a contract made in '72 They've got a side of it which they've got to uphold, we have a side that we've got to uphold Now, if either side breaks that contract--when the contract runs its course, then is the time you have the settlement But the contract's got to run its course We've got to wait until the entire thing goes through and we have the Board of E&R, and then take a responsible look at it No rational decision can be made right now I have never said that the values are all right or all wrong It would be impossible to do 43,000 parcels and have them either all right or all wrong I have said that there were errors But I still stand behind the revaluation law, and I'm very concerned that the very people that it is going to help are the ones being fooled into that it's going to hurt them Now, the thing to use as your yardstick of whether it's right or wrong is, after it's through and the tax rate is set, and then you wil] know what effect it had on you And if your property went up less than 100 percent, if your property went up less than 100 percent, your taxes next year, if the budget is held down, will probably be less than will be less this year than they were last year Are there any Commissioners have any comments? Incidentally Comm Alper I have a comment Chm Davis All right For instance, cars will be the value of cars the taxes on cars will be half because car values go up with inflation although your house stays constant There are people probably pay more taxes on their cars than they are their houses or lots Comm Alper Excuse me I think that Mr Davis has presented this thing in its most simple light I think what he says should be easily understandable And I think that the people here will get the protection that they need, that they want, and that we can offer them We are your representatives We will fight for your causes if you will permit it This here graphic illustration of how this thing is set up should really calm your fears as to what will happen in the end As he says, whatever it is will affect will be affected by the budget, and if we will do our utmost to hold the budget down, your the money that you will have to pay in taxes will be will be cut, will be held to a minimum You've got to give us a chance And no clapping, no demonstration can help your cause You have a champion in Mrs Wright, you have a champion in Mr Taylor and Buck O'Shields and our glorious and myself We're here to help you Don't get the impression that we're here to just take it from you None of us will benefit by it We all own property And we will be affected in the same sense that you are Give us a chance This is what we ask of you Give us a chance, and have some faith You voted us in We just didn't grow here Chm Davis George, you don't say that C~ (24) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Alper You have that privilege anytime you're unhappy Chm Davis You know, I see many of you out there who I have known almost all my life You've known me since I was a little boy And I view you all as friends I've been on this Commission now for 22 years almost, and I can't ever remember when there was not turmoil And we're going to survive this one as we have survived those in the past There are going to be those when everybody's on the same side and not But this is one of the most important things that has ever come before this County, and it has been my intention from the start to try to make sure that it is worked out equitably And that is my intention Now, we will that is, if any Commissioners don't have anything else to say, I'd like to open the floor Comm Wright I have one more thing Chm Davis All right, as soon as Mrs Wright makes her statement, I'd like to open the floor for 20 minutes, and if each person will hold their comments down, then we will be able to hear everybody, but we have a pretty long agenda, and there are probably some other items that ya'll would be interested in, and we hope you'll stay Mrs Wright? Comm Wright Were you intending to imply by your 10, 15 and 20 that you think 20 percent would be the maximum per year for a house to appreciate in this neighbor in this County? A normal house, an average house? Chm Davis If a house appreciated 20 percent annually, it would end up over eight years appreciating well, that would put a $10,000 house at $26,000 Almost three times Comm Wright That's too much Chm Davis Yes, ma'am, that is But there are instances where some houses would appreciate more There are instances where other houses do go down Normally, the average house has been appreciating, in the last three or four years, they've been appreciating almost 15 percent due to inflation Comm Wright But, if they are not inspected individually to determine individual depreciation and individual factors, how can you say that these appraisals are correct without reviewing them, I mean? It's my personal feeling that, if this Board does not want to second the motion I made twice this morning to review all the property, that you're neglecting to discharge your duties according to the State law I just toss that out for you to think about Chm Davis Mrs Wright, we are we've got the Tax Department that's look at them, CLT looked at them Comm Wright We have not looked at them though, and I'm hearing too many odd cases coming up, Peter, that make me really wonder Chm Davis And anybody who has any question, we'll take a complete, thorough look at it at the Board of E&R • • (25) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright The Board says we will review the tax list It doesn't say just the ones on appeal It says we will review it Chm Davis I think Gary was first, and then I saw Mrs Pleasants raise her hand, and Howard Loughlin, I think, had requested the floor, and Gary, you want to come up here or just stand there? Gary McDaniel This will be all right My comments are possibly on some of your first thing pointing out We're not really concerned with whether the property goes up or down or by what percentage or what is this We're concerned about inequities If you like you say, we've got the tax burden, and we're all standing around throwing money in the pot according to what we have If they say that I've got more than you, then I'm paying part of your taxes And this is what it amounts to, this is what we're complaining about, this is what the whole thing is about Now, they have already had sales ratio study that was turned over--I have a copy of it--and you commented yourself at the meeting that some of these are as much as 20 percent off one way or the other Now, it makes no difference which way If it's low, then they're paying part of my taxes, if it's high, then I'm paying part of theirs Chm Davis Wait a minute, Gary, I commented what? Gary McDaniel At the last at the meeting where the sales ratio study was pre- sented, you commented on it as being some were low and some were high, some were as many as much as 200 percent off I think there was something around 50 or 60 percent that was pretty accurate within about a 10 percent level, somewhere along in there I could get it if I needed to to back me up Chm Davis Some of the values are terribly out of line and those are the ones we need to Gary McDaniel That's what we are that's what we are disgruntled with because this throws your whole system out regardless of what you pay make the tax rate, you've still got your inequities, you've still got an uneven payment of taxes So, by having inequity, destroying your whole tax system This is our complaint-- inequities And this is what we want, and this is what we don't have Chm Davis Gary, we've got a common goal right there Gary McDaniel That I agree with, and we if we can get ya'll to cooperate with us, then we'll cooperate with ya'll And Mrs Wright had the right idea if ya'll will look into this thing and not rely on the people that are handling it and believe every word that they say as being actual fact and know for yourself whether they're right or whether they're wrong Chm Davis Well, Gary, you're assuming then that none of us have done anything other than sit here in the meetings Gary McDaniel No, I just made a statement Comm O'Shields Well, I think you ought to you're you're • (26) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE • Meeting of March 17, 1975 Gary McDaniel In other words, I didn't say anything except what I said Comm O'Shields Well, you said we ought to check in and not take their word Gary McDaniel I didn't say anything in other words, I made a statement Comm O'Shields You did You made a statement Gary McDaniel That's right I didn't say anything, in other words I said it in the words I said it Comm O'Shieids A1T right Well, you said that, you said you didn't say anything Gary McDaniel The informal hearings are not a part of the appeals process according to the North Carolina Statutes From the reports that I have had that people have talked to me, and I have attended one of the meetings, the manual is not available to the people that attend these informal hearings They are not allowed to take tape recorders in there The rules are set up entirely by Cole-Layer-Trumble or the Tax Office, whichever is responsible They are set They're their rules You play the game their way, or you don't go I'm asking this Commission this morning to set up some rules for these informal hearings and allow the people to take in a tape recorder if they want Let them take it in Let them record it If these meetings are going like everybody says, there's nothing to hide, it's all on the up and up, there should be no objection There are no minutes taken, they're stricly informal hearings, so, why not let people take in a tape recorder? I'm asking the Commission to do this and set up some rules for these hearings so that the taxpayer has some rights and we play the game by both rules Chm Davis Gary, could I Dan, did I call you or did I call you, Mr Fox? I called someone concerning the request on this Who did I talk to was that Was that you, Larry? Cty Mgr Eller Mrs Wright's question Comm Wright I wrote him about one case, I know, before my own came up Chm Davis No, I had called someone concerning whether or not they could be used, and what was the verdict? Cty Mgr Eller Well, yeah, I talked with you about it and I talked with Jim He said that we could not Cty Att Fox Mrs Wright asked me whether or not they could require CLT to permit use of recorders Cole-Layer-Trumble Company is a private company and occupies leased premises, and just as between two individuals, as I see it, I would have no right to tell you in your home to permit me to make a recording of our conversation In other words, you have (turning tape over) in other words, use of a tape recorder at a private situation has to be by the mutual consent of the parties Now, that's the situation as I see it with regard to CLT As a matter of policy whether they want to permit it, that's entirely between the Cole-Layer-Trumble Company and the taxpayer • (27) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright Could we not tell them that we think they should under that clause of the contract that says they'll endeavor to maintain good relations? Cty Att Fox You can advise them that in your opinion it would be a wise policy But I don't in my view, you could not tell them to permit this legally Comm Wright In my opinion, it would be I don't know about the rest of ya'll Gary McDaniel Let me say that these informal hearings are being done by the endorse- ment of the County Commissioners, yet, there are no rules to go by other than Cole-Layer-Trumble's rules, therefore, I am asking, since you're endorsing it, would you also endorse some rules to go by? If they are not wiling to make some why have the informal hearings when they're so one-sided? It's like saying, if you don't play the game my way, I'm going to pick up my marbles and go home I think Commissioner Wright was told that, if she brought that tape recorder into the meeting, that the meeting was it was not going to be Comm Wright That's exactly what he said He said if we used it Gary McDaniel There would be no meeting They were denying her an informal hearing if she brought the recorder in, so, that's the reason I'm asking you, if you're going to have the informal hearings you're going to continue them, would you please set up some rules to go by that would guarantee the taxpayer some type of courtesy as well as some type of rules Chm Davis We're we're about to run out of time I want everybody to have an opportunity Gary McDaniel On the informal hearings, the cards are not signed by the appraiser, and they're not dated by the appraiser--at least, the ones that I saw are not-- by the preliminary information gatherer, or whatever you call him, when I his initials on there, and the cards that I saw, they were out there in 1973 about August or September of '73 And according to the information they supplied these people, the appraiser did not go back until November of 1974, and his initials, his date or anything was not on there on a packet of cards, and I believe this is called for in your contract that it be signed and dated and, also, the appraisers are not identified except by number Chm Davis We've got about 12 minutes left Mrs Pleasants, could you leave enough time so other people Cecelia Pleasants Mr Davis, I would like to ask you what special interests you think that the organization has in mind other than the constitutional rights of the people May I remind you, sir, that the Constitution of the United States and of North Carolina allows us the right of appeal The Cole-Layer-Trumble hearings are not legal, they are their whole purpose is to place a chilling effect upon the legal appeal process I think everyone who's been there has come out with the same feeling Number one, a waste of time--I was sitting next to a man who was a plumber, he makes $5 65 an hour, he had been sitting down there for five hours I finally sent him to Mr Eller's office, and Mr Eller was able to get Cole-Layer-Trumble to let this man have his hearing and go on All right I want ~J (28) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 to ask you if you've read Gilbert Cuneo's book on the Machinery Act I am thoroughly aware of what the Machinery Act is from the beginning to end I am thoroughly aware of the appraisal process as opposed to the assessment process I am not an idiot, and neither are the people in this County, and I think it's about time that you County Commissioners realized that the public intelligentsia is not at the fifth grade level And thank you for your graphic demonstration though it may be full of very, very large loopholes which are untrue I would like to ask you if you recall last Friday morning when we met and you were going into your Cole- Layer-Trumble hearing, I was passing out some information that had at the top of it "Property Records -- Obtain a copy of your property record card You said, well what do you need that for? And I said, Mr Davis, you mean to tell me no, let me correct I said, this will help the people more intelligently prepare their case for the Board of Equalization & Review And you as a County Commissioner did not even know that the property record card was the most important piece of information and evidence that these people could get Now, we are not allowed to help people in the Cole-Layer-Trumble hearings because ya'll have decided Cole- Layer-Trumble has decided to place some sort of thing called "soliciting" on an agreement that was supposed to have been reached with the Ad Valorem Tax Division Now, I would like to know who is going to help these people if the Tax Association does not help them and why we are being denied the right to help them Now, I'd like an answer from the County Commission on that, and I would like to know, also, why the amount of the, Mr Powell, I would like to know why the amount of the evaluation is not shown on this property record card in view of the fact that the tax abstracts were mailed out on the 15th of January with these amounts in them, however, they are not shown on the property record cards at the time of the inter- view Now, I'd like to know an answer to that I would also like to know who pays the postage for this so-called notification that the Cole-Layer-Trumble people were supposed to have made prior to December 28th, 1974, which is the only basis in the contract for these informal hearings I want to know who paid the postage on that I want to know how much of the contract we're paying for As an example, there were two young ladies sitting in the Tax Office one morning making telephone calls finding out how much people paid for their property, and then later we were able to relate that back to a comparable being used And that's all I have to say Chm Davis Mrs Pleasants, first of all you say that the hearings are not legal and you have urged people not to cooperate, and then you turn around and say we're not allowed to help Cecelia Pleasants I have not urged them not to cooperate I have asked them to go there with the intent of getting the information instead of giving it because you are the legal appeal board Chm Davis Out of your whole speech here, that part of it which was not a personal attack on me, does not deal one bit with the issue Aren't you concerned about these people's problem and trying to get it resolved or are you more intent upon attacking Cole-Layer-Trumble, this County Commission Cecelia Pleasants I am intent upon the County Commissioners' being responsive to the citizens and allowing them to obtain the information that's necessary Chm Davis We are trying to (29) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Cecelia Pleasants How? May I ask how? Chm Davis We have first the hearing which you said is not right, but then you claim that you want to take part in Cecelia Pleasants We went ahead with this because we had an agreement with Cole- Layer-Trumble that we Chm Davis The whole time I was over there Friday, I did not see anybody bother you I saw you go in the office and hand material out I saw you enter with people on hearings I saw you come in there while people were having hearings, and you came in there very loudly and says, "Can I have a chair? Can I have a chair?" There were all sorts of vacant chairs I mean, instead of just picking on up, you started loudly, I mean you know, disturbed everybody, and people have a right Cecelia Pleasants I have a very loud voice It's because I sing Chm Davis People have a right to have a private and personal hearing in spite of what people think Their property is a personal thing to them Cecelia Pleasants Are you saying that you have data then or affidavits to say that I disturbed someone? Chm Davis What? Cecelia Pleasants Are you saying that you have something that to say that I disturbed someone? Chm Davis I'm saying that I was in my hearing Cecelia Pleasants Can you give me the name of one person I disturbed? Chm._ Davis I said that I was in my hearing and that you came in there and were loud enough to where it took my attention away from my hearing Comm Wright Don't you think the t v cameras you had there might have disturbed someone else, Peter Chm Davis The t v cameras I had there Mr Sweeney, had I asked you to come there that morning? Tom Sweeney (Ch 6) No Comm Wright But you did well, you were there But he was there, and you allowed him to come in with yours Don't you think that might have disturbed someone? Chm Davis I think he was outside filming her when she came in Comm Wright In relation to this issue, may I say something? Chm Davis If you'd like (30) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright Several weeks ago when Mr Vaughan was still on this Board and the hearings had just been in process for a few days, I was called by Mr Mike Vaughan about 12 30 one day He says, Mrs Pleasants is over there, his exact words were, "She's acting like a wild woman She's disrupting the whole office I said, "Now, Mr Vaughan, tell me specifically, what is she doing?" He could not tell me I said, "Mr Vaughan, who has called you because not everyone over there is reliable He would not tell me who had called him I put in a call to ask Mrs Pleasants to call me In the middle of waiting for her to get back to me, Mr Eller, the County Manager, called me He said, "Please help me " He said, "The Cole-Layer-Trumble folks are going to walk out if she doesn't leave " Now, I told her what I had been told by both of them that Cole-Layer-Trumble was getting ready to toss her out of the office at one o'clock that day Now, when they finally got around to asking her to leave that day, she must not have been out of that office more than ten minutes before I got calls from two local citizens who were there at the time, and who were very upset that she was asked to leave because they said she was not disturbing a soul They said she was very courteous and polite and was helping people and giving out information Comm Alper Ladies and gentlemen, this whole conversation is pointless It's not getting us anywhere Cecelia Pleasants How can it be pointless? Comm Alper These personal accusations don't help you, don't help us It doesn't really make sense Cecelia Pleasants May I ask you a question, Mr Alper Comm Alper You can ask me anything you want, but don't get personal about it because it doesn't get anybody anywhere Cecelia Pleasants I'm not being personal I have a question for Cole-Layer- Trumble and one for Mr Powell May I ask those questions? Comm Alper Yes you may Cecelia Pleasants May we pass out information that would be assistance to the people during the informal hearing process, Mr Haskell? In the hall, in the hall, or without solicitation We are not soliciting May we have the authority, Mr Haskell, to pass out information in the hall? Chm Davis Who is Mr Haskell? Cecelia Pleasants Hartzell or whatever your name is Jim Rose (CLT) My name is Rose Cecelia Pleasants Mr Rose, may we have your authority to pass out information such as the questionnaire I just gave Mrs here to assist them with their informal hearings? • (31) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm O'Shields Didn't she have that permission one time? Jim Rose (CLT) She had, but it has created nothing but problems As far as you having the permission to pass it out in the office or in the hallway, the answer is no Comm Wright Do you control the hallway through your rental agreement? Jim Rose (CLT) Yes we do Unknown Audience We're paying your salary to conduct these hearings Jim Rose (CLT) You are not paying my salary, ma'am Unknown Audience Well, the City of Wilmington is and New Hanover County Jim Rose (CLT) I am being paid by the Company Cecelia Pleasants Well, my question was to him May I pass it out? He has said, No, I will not Chm Davis You were passing it out Friday when I was there Cecelia Pleasants That's right I was doing it because we had had a meeting on Thursday morning with them, and they said no, you will not be allowed to help the people Now you're saying, the County Commissioners are saying, that we're creating problems He says we're creating problems How can it create problems for people to obtain information that is relevant to their case when they're coming before the Board of Equalization & Review? I don't see that that's creating problems unless there's something wrong Now, is there something wrong? Perhaps it is creating problems Unknown Audience Mr Chairman? Chm Davis Wait a minute, wait a minute Cecelia Pleasants And the question I have for Mr Powell is this Mr Powell, did you talk with Mr West on the telephone in my presence and Mr West stated, and Mr Holbrook I believe have also both made the statement, that the Taxpayers Association is rendering a service to the people in the County by helping them to obtain the information that is necessary for them to intelligently fight their cases before the Board of Equalization and Review? Tax Adm Powell_ Mrs Pleasants, you were on the phone with Mrs West, I was not I do not know what statement Mr West made to you over that phone conversation Cecelia Pleasants May I ask you if the Taxpayers Association has in any way bothered your employees? Tax Adm Powell On occasions, yes, ma'am • u (32) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis Mrs Pleasants, all right Mr Croom, let me get to Mr Fisher and then to you and then this thing is if we could tie it down then Herbert Fisher I realize this is getting out of order, and I'm sorry to infringe on the Commissioners this morning But I do feel at this time that our Tax Supervisor has openly admitted to this body, and this is the County Commissioners I'm speaking of, that problems did exist as much as a year ago And, due to these problems that existed, it showed up on the tax abstract now the abstracts were mailed out and a flood of people came in and protested Even our representatives felt the need for their people to have additional time where this thing could be corrected Now, our Tax Supervisor is responsible for the work that CLT does according to the Machinery Act We're possibly putting a burden on the County Com- missioners for some relief when actually the Tax Supervisor is in charge of this entire appraisal or reappraisal Now, he mailed the letter out to the Mayor of Wrightsville Beach, and he says that he was asking for help from people for his part of the appraisal Well, the Taxpayers Association felt like that we needed to help our part of the people--people who were defenseless--and this is why the Taxpayers Association has become so involved in this case It's that the Tax Supervisor has asked fora Board of Realtors to help, Mr Holbrook who is the Ad Valorem Tax Commissioner to help, he has asked for additional time and review from CLT, and CLT has said openly that they will correct errors According to the information that has just been stated earlier this morning, some 2,051 changes have been mailed out I'd like to just ask at this time, were these changes due to the preliminary hearings or were they errors that were corrected before a preliminary hearing? This needs to be answered at this time Chm Davis Would you explain Tax Adm Powell It was some results of both, from informal hearings and from errors that were Chm Davis Both, Herbert Herbert Fisher All right Well, you know, the majority of the people that have come down for a preliminary hearing have been told that you will either hear from us by mail by the first of April and, if you do not hear from us by that time, then we recommend that you write a letter and ask for an appeal So, the majority of the people still are waiting and wondering what happened to their appeal Now, if 2,051 corrections have been made already, then this alone certain]y amplifies the situation that does exist, and the burden is still being placed upon the individuals who have said repeatedly that do not get results at the preliminary hearings, that I won't go I won't go to the Board of Review because I know that I can't fight City Hall This is the kind of statement that they use Chm Davis Herbert, I take the changes to show that progress is being made Many of these changes were probably made on people who had not either asked for a hearing or the Board of E&R because of the mass type appraisal Any changes that are made that would affect one piece of property that would affect other pieces will be made even during the Board of E&R So, I mean, I take it as progress The positive part of what the Taxpayers Association has done I do appreciate I've been surprised at some of the statements that have been put out about me which were totally incorrect Having knownyou and Joe all my life and ya'll having known my family and • (33) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 everything, I've been surprised that your Association would say some of these things But, I mean, politics is politics, so, I mean I just I mean, you know when I got into it, I knew these things will happen So, I just sort of accept it and go along with it I don't take it personal although it's meant that way Herbert Fisher No, it isn't intended personally Actually, when you asked for a press release on your hearing, this brought your personal case to the public's attention I mean we didn`t request this actually You requested that Chm Davis Had not beforehand your Association gotten copies of all my tax records? Herbert Fisher I beg your pardon I have never I have never had any copies of them Chm Davis Has anybody copied my tax records? Tax Adm Powell Yes sir, they have Herbert Fisher Some tax records were received on the Echo Farm development Chm Davis Which I was accused of owning part of of being in a Corporation and a simple phone call would have demonstrated that I had nothing that I do not own any part of that Corporation, never have Unknown Audience Well, if you don't own it, they don't have copies of your tax records Chm Davis No The Taxpayers Association Herbert Fisher We did not go into a personal we went into Echo Farms just to compare that Chm Davis No But does not the Taxpayers Association have copies of my tax records? Herbert Fisher Not to my knowledge, no sir Not in any of our files not in any of our files, and we have never discussed Peter Davis Chm Davis Did a member of the Taxpayers Association? Do you know of anyone? Tax Adm Powell To my knowledge, she is a member of the Taxpayers Association She did obtain copies of Russell Anderson Builders' cards which consisted, the best I can remember, of four or five cards Cecelia Pleasants For 1974 Chm Davis Any information that anybody wants about my property Cecelia Pleasants I would obtain one for Mrs Wright or Mr Alper Chm Davis Are you investigating all the Commissioners? • (34) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE • Meeting of March 17, 1975 Cecelia Pleasants I'm not investigating anyone, Mr Davis, and we're getting back to personalities again Comm O'Shields Has anyone copied mine? Chm Davis No These were statements made about these were statements made about me on television Cecelia Pleasants They're public information, and not only have I got copies of yours but, as Mr Fisher said, we made some other copies that are going to be of interest to our attorney Chm Davis Also, I think members of your company have of your corporation have made calls to people that I do business with questioning them I know of one call in particular I find it surprising that the Taxpayers Association is prying into my private life The papers are full of this I have I don't have anything to hide I'm surprised that, you know we've had so much with the CIA-- Senator Morgan was investigated if the Taxpayers Association is, you know, sort of entering into this, I'm surprised I wonder how far they'll go I'm wondering what other public officials are being investigated Herbert Fisher We have never discussed your private life in a Board of Directors meeting, and your name has never come up Chm Davis Do you know of any member who has pried into my tax records or has made a call? Herbert Fisher No sir Not to my knowledge, and our president happened to be present Chm Davis Mrs Pleasants, do you know of any action? Comm O'Shields Peter, I'd like to make a motion Cecelia Pleasants I made I made inquiries to Mr & Mrs Jimmy Edwards, who I happen to be handling their Board of Equalization & Review hearing We went down there to obtain information because there was an error made on a piece of property that at one time was Echo Farms and then changed to Echo Village Chm Davis Wait a minute What now? Cecelia Pleasants You have a piece of property called Echo Village, is that correct? Chm Davis I am a member of a partnership that has Echo Village Echo Village has never been part of Echo Farms Cecelia Pleasants Let me explain why, Mr Davis Chm Davis No No Go back to where you said Echo Farms and Echo Village were the same They just have similar names Yes, ma'am You said, "was once a part " (35) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Cecelia Pleasants 0 K We]], may I rephrase the question? Chm Davis Did you ask him concerning any leases and things like this? Cecelia Pleasants I was handling the Board of Equalization & Review for Mr & Mrs Edwards Chm Davis He called you and asked Cecelia Pleasants Yes, he did And they came by my house at ]east they've been by my house at least three or four times The reason was that he had received the abstract for the 100 98 34 acres of land that you had purchased in July of 1974, you and your corporation or your corporation had purchased And they had received the tax abstract for it And it was corrected and then brought down to the correct amount In the course of the whole thing is how I became involved in what you had to do with it Chm Davis And you made statements concerning this Cecelia Pleasants I made statements in so far as the fact that you purchased the property from Mr & Mrs Edwards and Echo Farms I made the statement on the air on the Art Bannon Show that I had called Mr Eller, and I had asked him or I had spoken to him about the fact that lots were sold for $8,500 in Echo Farms and that they were on the tax books for $2,100 and that I had an affidavit to that effect, and I also had an affidavit to the fact that you were building two houses adjoining this one particular lot Comm O'Shields I want to make a motion Chm Davis (to Comm O'Shields) All right (to Mrs Pleasants) No, go on Cecelia Pleasants And so Chm Davis No Keep going No Keep going Cecelia Pleasants I think I've answered what you said Chm Davis No, you haven't because in '74 I did not own any property at Echo Farms I have never had anything Cecelia Pleasants You owned the property from the Edwards which is Echo Village Chm Davis Right We bought that Right And I think you said that I had applied which I have a legal Gary McDaniel Peter, I think you're making this a personal issue more than anybody else Chm Davis Gary, this was discussed on the Art Bannon Show incorrectly Gary McDaniel Well, why don't ya'll go on the Art Bannon Show and finish it (36 ) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Chm Davis No, I mean no, I mean, I'm concerned that the Taxpayers Association which I think it's I think that the Taxpayers Association has in the past done a service I have in the past agreed on many occasions with Mr Rogers and with Mr Fisher The fact that I found out that my that they were prying Gary McDaniel You're sitting here doing nothing and recognize it Chm Davis Please let Gary, we let you talk now, be quiet I mean I'm just surprised I wonder what other public officials are going to be investigated This type of stuff has never gone on around here Comm Wright Peter, you have made Chm Davis Herbert, you want to finish? Comm Wright the statement that Echo Farms you did not own any property in Echo Farms last year? Chm Davis That's right Conn Wright I was down there last fall riding my bicycle on a Sunday afternoon looking at a couple of new houses One of them had a Russell Anderson Builders sign in front of it Is that not your firm? Chm Davis Yes That's my firm Comm Wright Chm Wavle You owned the lot then that you were building the house on No That was a contract house I was building it for the Company Comm Wright 0 K I'll take that back then sign there last fall But I wondered because I saw your Chm Davis See these are public records People shouldn't make mistakes and say that this person does this and that person does than when you can simply go to the I mean there is no use for anybody in this thing to try to assassinate somebody's character Herbert Fisher Well, I don't think this was the intent of the Taxpayers Association, however, due to the fact that this entire appraisal seems to be based on comparables of everything that everybody else owns, then other people's names have to come forward evidentally Now, the ladies through have been most gracious in giving their time to come down and assist the people because the men do not have the time to do so during the day They have to go upstairs evidentally and look in the card file of 1974 and use as a comparable what somebody else's land was valued at in comparison to the person who is having the preliminary hearing So, this may be the reason for what you are referring to, Peter, but I don't think that there was intent personally to hurt you or to try to make anything false. statements made or so forth However, cards do have to come forth when you're making comparables But, the thing that I would like to say is that, going back to your chart a minute which I understand it and I am trying to broaden the scope • (37) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE • Meeting of March 17, 1975 a little bit, we are in a time of inflationary, and people are more concerned today because, when you state that of course taxes will come down and valuations go up-- and this is what you said, right? Chm Davis I said the rate Herbert Fisher The rate would come down Chm Davis could come down Herbert Fisher whenever the valuations go up Chm Davis according to the budget Herbert Fisher According to the budget This is the punch line The punch line is that five years ago, the County budget was something like $5 million and it's something like $30 million now And, due to the cost of operation, the public are very concerned because they have no assurance that next year or the year after that the tax rate's going to remain somewhere in a lower key Chm Davis Herbert, but this is were the valuation comes in, not the fact that the budget's going up but the fact who's carrying the load and that everybody's carrying their equal share Now of that $30 million you've got to break it into how much is State funds and how much is Local If you'll finish, I think Buck wants the floor, and then if we can tie this thing Herbert Fisher I want to answer some of the things that were said Number one, of course, you stated that the letters that went out by the Taxpayers Association the letters that went out by the Taxpayers Association the letter itself is an annual letter that goes out in March February and March of every year because this is our calendar year is February mailing March is our calendar year So the letter went out as a routine procedure Chm Davis This one right here? Herbert Fisher The letter with the information as to joining and renewing your membership Chm Davis No, this one just says to join with us, we're hit with a tax burden and Herbert Fisher It's an annual letter, and naturally, every year you change the letter You don't use the same form every year Comm Alper Are Commissioners permitted to join? Comm Wright I'm a member Comm Alper Isn't there a conflict of interest? Comm Wright My family has been a member on the roles of the Taxpayers Association ever since it started It was in 1971 if I am not mistaken And I do not • • (38) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 consider it a conflict of interest because they are non-partisan, non-profit They're organized and chartered for the purpose of working for responsible government and reasonable tax rates Those are the same things that I am working for They do not come to the County and ask for appropriations for which we would be voting on, so, I do not consider it a conflict Chm Davis Should you not have advised the County Commission that you are a member of this organization? Comm Wright I've been Chm Davis I mean it's Comm Wright on the books ever since '71, and I'm telling you now if it's Chm Davis Are the books are the books open to the Taxpayers Association? Comm Alper Well, we're not incidentally, we're non-partisan Chm Davis the membership? Comm Alper and we're surely non-profit Chm Davis I mean, I think a full disclosure should have been, hlrs Wright Comm Wright Would you care to make a full disclosure now of all the organizations you might be a member or a director of that come to the County for appropriations perhaps? Chm Davis Are you wait a minute which ones what are you talking about, the Boards that I have been appointed on since I've been here Comm Wright I'm saying that we have right many charitable and organizations of that type which come to the County for appropriations, and I would ask you, are you a member or have you been a member or are you a director or have you been a director of any of those organizations on which you vote for appropriations? Chm Davis None other than the ones that I have been appointed to publicly by this Commission Comm Wright You were not I'm just trying to tie it down a little bit you were not, for instance, involved with the Retired Senior Volunteer Program, the Azalea Festival Committee, the Arts Council, St John's Art Gallery any of those organizations that come to us for appropriations? Chm Davis No I resigned from the RSVP Comm Wright I would remind you of one occasion last year when we had a group down here Chm Davis The Azalea Festival I'm not a member of, the Arts Council I'm not a member of • :7 (39) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Comm Wright May I finish? Chm Davis Yeah I mean Comm Wright I'm reminding you of an occasion last year, if this is going to become an issue and you did place it on the agenda today--a Code of Ethics-- but I see it's way down at the end of the agenda, but maybe now is the time to discuss it But there was an occasion last year, when we had a large group of people coming here seeking County endorsement, a letter of intent to fund in the County budget this year, in the discussion it was pointed out that you and another member of this Board were directors of that group I questioned the fact that you should not vote on that appropriation, and you made the statement that, before you would withdraw as a director, you would like to know how I was going to vote because you wanted to be sure they'd get their third vote Chm Davis But, I mean, did the public know that I was a member, I mean Comm Alper Excuse me I didn't know that I was going to start anything I m sorry I withdraw the question I was being facetious Chm Davis We need to end this Herbert, could you finish and then Buck In three minutes, we've got to end this Comm O'Shields I want the floor Herbert Fisher You got me sidetracked Chm Davis I apologize Herbert Fisher The only thing is that we have never come to the County Commis- sioners and asked for any funds Chm Davis I'm aware of that, Herbert Herbert Fisher And so, therefore, this should have not conflict with any member Comm Wright It doesn't Herbert Fisher I feel like that Comm Wright Not a thing Herbert Fisher we are performing Comm Alper I'm sorry I'm sorry Chm Davis 0 K 0 K Comm Alper Come on let's go Herbert Fisher Well, I just wanted to clear up the letter the letter bit that went out is nothing to do with the revaluation It was a matter of a annual report going to the Taxpayers Association The fact that • • (40) REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 when you mentioned your property was reduced from $7,000 from $32,000 to $7,000 well, this was a considerable decrease, and it was given to you evidentally right at once because Chm Davis No This has been done under the mass appraisal before I even got there When the mass appraised Carolina Beach Herbert Fisher Well, there are a lot of people on the Beaches, both Carolina and Wrightsville, haven't received any adjustment Chm Davis Was this mailed out just to me or to everybody? Tax Adm Powell Everyone in that section of Carolina Beach Unknown Audience I haven't received anything I'm from Carolina Beach I haven't seen nothing Herbert Fisher I'm trying to just bring out to you that some people do feel Well, he got his corrected and it's already in the paper, and look how much it was So, they feel that they've been hurt They feel like they've been stepped on maybe this isn't true But I'm trying to show you both sides of the story You have a side saying, please give us time We have not been down here for several weeks because of this Chm Davis The change that I asked for, I got the same answer everybody else did, we'll go out and take a look at it Comm Wright I didn't get that answer I go the answer that, if they came out and looked at it, they might raise it Chm Davis And if you well, they might raise mine too, but they said I'd by April 1st Buck? Comm O'Shields I'd like to make a motion that this discussion be tabled, and that we continue on with the items on the agenda as set forth Coma Alper and Comm Taylor Second Chm Davis The tabling motions are not debatable All in favor? Comm Alper, O'Shields, Taylor and Chm Davis Aye Chm Davis All opposed Comm Wright Noe Gary McDaniel Peter, ya'll have interrupted Herbert about six or eight times, and he's still got the floor Are you going to let him talk or not? Comm O'Shields The motion's been made Chm Davis The Commission has tabled this We have been in discussion for what REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE (41) Meeting of March 17, 1975 was going to be a 30 minute presentation has drug out to about two hours and 15 minutes There will be a, hopefully, I will there will be an updating of this after the informal hearings We will find out what progress has been made then, and at that time, I hope ya'll will come back Comm Wright Why come back when you don't let them talk Gary McDaniel Are you going to act on what I asked you to--that you make some rules for the informal hearings, or not? Chm Davis Gary, we cannot alter the contract with Cole-Layer-Trumble Gary McDaniel This is still going to be Cole-Layer-Trumble's rules You either play it by their rules or you don't play at all, you don't go to the informal hearings Chm Davis That's not a fair statement Gary McDaniel It is a fair statement because Comm O'Shields The motion Chm Davis There was a contract, Gary, there was a contract Gary McDaniel Wait a minute Wait a minute Comm O'Shields Point of order Point of order Gary McDaniel You are endorsing, by the contract, the informal hearings Am I correct? It's in the contract Now, if they are endorsing it and in the contract, then surely they have got some say-so about how it's done, and, if they don't, Larry Powell does because they work for Larry Powell, and he's charged by the North Carolina Statutes with the entire responsibility of seeing that equalization is carried out Chm Davis That's what we're trying to do, Gary Gary McDaniel So either the Board of County Commissioners or Larry Powell one has the authority to set up some rules for these informal hearings Chm Davis Gary, aren't you a businessman? Comm O'Shields Point of order Point of order Gary McDaniel I sure am down here this morning and be heard Chm Davis What do you I mean, if somebody gives you a contract, do you let them change it in mid-stream? Comm Wright Don't you make them live up to it though, Peter? (42) Gary McDaniel The people that work for me • Comm O'Shields The motion has been made and seconded and voted on that we proceed Chm Davis The point of order has been called, and this discussion Comm Wright I move that we advise Cole-Layer-Trumble that we expect them to live up to the part of the contract which says they'll endeavor to maintain good relationships with the public and that that would include our feeling that any member of the public who wishes to have information passed out to him at the hearing could and that, if they want records of the hearings, they be allowed to make them Chm Davis Mrs Wright, the contract is specific, it cannot be changed in mid-term Comm Wright The contract says they will endeavor to maintain good relations I'm just saying let's tell them to live up to it Chm Davis If you find places that the contract is not being lived up to, it should be Comm Wright I pointed out four to you this morning, but you wouldn't listen Chm Davis it should be called to the attention of the County Manager and changed Comm O'Shields Point of order Chm Davis it is an administrative matter We will now move on to Item 5, which is the date for the Board of Equalization and Review Mr Croom Mr Chairman, I asked you a good while ago to let me say a few words, and you said you would Now, are you going to let me have anything to say or are you not? Chm Davis Mr Croom, they have tabled it The Board has taken this action Mr Croom I know, but you ought not to table it until I got the chance I'm a citizen and a taxpayer, too Chm Davis I know you are, Mr Croom Comm Alper The folks used up all the time Mr Croom Mr Alper, I'm not talking to you because I'm going to excuse all of you Commissioners that hadn't been on here when this here Company was employed to come in here and make the valuation I want all of you excused anyway Chm Davis All of us were (43) ' REPORT FROM COLE-LAYER-TRUMBLE Meeting of March 17, 1975 Mr Croom And that includes you, and Mrs Wright, and Mr Taylor--I know that-- and I think Mr O'Shields, too Chm Davis None of us were on here when the contract was made, Mr Croom Mr Croom Well who give them the contract? Chm Davis The contract was by Comm Wright It was signed about two weeks before we came on the Board, Mr Croom It was Meares Harriss, Berry Williams, John Oxenfeld, Ham Marks and Mike Hall are the five who actually signed the contract Mr Croom Well, I wouldn't say anything about Mike Hall 'cause he's just like a brother of mine, but Chm Davis Mr Croom, please Mr Croom Do you know what that company was paid to do that job to come in here and do the job? Chm Davis Please bear with us These are pub that's public record, but, please bear with us because we have got to I mean, it has been tabled What was going to be a short discussion has been drug out Mr Croom I don't think that you ought to table it until the people get a chance to say something Chm Davis The Commission has done it, and that's it Mr Croom Yeah, well I know, and they got this here company in here to appraise this property and that's it, too Now the people's got to pay it if they don't cheat And they're going to have some cheating out of me, I'll tell you that END OF DISCUSSION LARRY J POWELL Tax Administrator ~a~ RAYMOND E BLAKE, JR Appraisal Supervisor 119 NORTH FIFTH STREET Regular Scroll Charges Discoveries Added ~,Anober ,, E~°, ~( ~~4 ~~ ~trmutgtott, .~ c~ 28401 NEW HANOVER COUNTY TAX COLLECTIONS COLLECTIONS THRU FEBRUARY 28, 1975 Less Abatements Total Taxes Due New Hanover Co Total Collected Outstanding Balance Percentage Collected Back Taxes Real Estate Taxes Less Abatements Total Collections to Date Outstanding Balance Percentage Collected Personal Property Taxes Less Abatements Total Collections to Date Outstanding Balance Percentage Collected MAE B. STUART Listing Supervisor JANIE B. STRAUGHN Collector of Revenue 762-0391 i 1974 1973 $6,510,471 59 $5,636,844 85 1,491,781 41 1,341,958 88 8,002,253 00 6,978,803 73 - 23,357 50 - 13,605 78 7,978,895 50 6,965,197 95 -7,526,595 85 -6,493,478 85 452,299 65 471,719 10 94 3% 93 2% $305,089 15 - 16,838 36 -108,930 16 179,320 63 37 7 0 $343,627 23 - 33,933 44 - 28,654 09 281,039 70 9 30 $361,200 30 - 6,289 81 -115,896 17 239,014 32 32 6 0 $319,437 58 - 216 67 - 32,095 31 287,125 60 10 Oo Total money processed through collections office for New Hanover County, City of Wilmington, Carolina Beach, Kure Beach, and Wrightsville Beach to date $12,0.56,564 52 This report is.fo~r fiscal year beginning July 1, 1974 Respectfully submitted, ~~ Ja ie B Straughn Collector of Revenue JBS/per March ll, 1975 MEMORANDUM TO Mr Dan W Eller, County Manager New Hanover County Board of County Commissioners ;i FROM Larry J Powell Tax Administrato't~ SUBJ Abatements and Refunds Request the following taxes be released as these are clerical errors 1 Riley S Evans $117 38 2 Pansy G Futrelle 2 37 (Refund) 3 Joel R Larson 2 37 (Refund) 4 Dan B Hardee 296 62 Request the following taxes be abated as they have been double listed 1 Carolyn T Brooks $ 16 64 (Refund) 2 Charles F Blake 76 98 3 Rufus Hines 2 71 ($1 84 Refund) 4 Dixie D Bozeman 18 69 5 Loftin E Bordeaux 62 00 (1969) The following taxpayers request they be allowed the Sensor Citizens` Exemption Each individual qualifies for this exemption, however, they failed to file for the release in January 1 Elizabeth Allen $102 00 2 L R Norris 12 75 3 H H Caison 102 00 4 R T Webster 102 00 (Refund) 5 Mary C Day 15 81 6 Lillie Leloudis 97 80 (1972-1973) Request the following taxes be released as these individuals do not reside within the city or town limits, or the person~.l property is located within the county l.. Ralph B Neville $ 20 97 ($10 17 Refund) 2 'Ransom G Benfield 13 56 (1973) 3 Morris E Merritt 89 06 (Refund) Abatements and Refunds Page 2 March 11, 1975 4 Linda B Harris $ 13 36 5 Theodore E McNeil 53 13 6 Lloyd W White 24 34 7 Howard R Myrick 37 82 8 George W Talman Const Co 90 63 (Refund) 9 Joyce B Boaz 22 68 (1973) 10 Ronald Worrell 24 07 11 Charles D Holder 61 84 (1968) 12 Dewey L Bordeaux 26 78 (1971) Request the taxes be released as the property was acquired by a governmental agent through condemnations and transfers were not proceeded at the time of the conveyances 1 Mary J Winslow $ 76 72 (1970-1974) 2 A V Mobley 43 81 (1967) 3 Rayshine Singleton 113 34 (1973-1974) 4 Hrs Moses Bear 2040 82 5 Hrs Sutton Bell 71 11 (1966-1974) 6 Eloise R Wood 37 68 (1968-1974) 7 David Sidbury 12 38 (1967) Request the following taxes be released as the taxpayers reported incorrect information 1 Ronald Worrell 2 Lillie M Parrott 3 Hosea Bradley $ 1 53 (Refund) 2.04 28 51 (1973-1974) Request this Item be placed on the agenda of the County Commissioners' meeting of March 17, 1975 cc Mrs King LJP/pjr f` ~. DISCLOSURE OF PROPERTY IN NEW HANOVER COUNTY AND STOCK OWNED BY COUNTY COMMISSION CHAIRMAN PETER R DAVIS AND WIFE AS OF MARCH 14, 1975 PROPERTY Lots 8, 9, 10, Block 214, Carolina Beach interest with Louise Madigan of Charlotte 1 2 acres, Fisherville, ~ interest with William Bordeaux House - 2823 Hydrangea Place General Partner with David Loughlin in Echo Village Partnership, Ltd , which owns 98 acres on Carolina Beach Road One limited partnership in same (1 of 10) Russell Anderson Builders - Rental Houses and/or For Sale 3905 Ashley Circle - rented Lot 4826, Randall Drive - rented 3950 Sweetbriar Road - rented Lot 17A, Shirley Road with house - for sale Lot 23, Appleton Way, Echo Fans - house under construction Lot 72, Cheshire Lane, Echo Farms - house under construction STOCK Xerox - 1 Saxon Industries - 11 Nucor Corporation - 55 Virginia Electric Power Company (Vepco) - 69 Russell Anderson Builders - 100% Unimed - 35