1998-03-19 Special Meeting
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 362
ASSEMBLY
The New Hanover County Board of Commissioners met in Special Session with the New
Hanover County Board of Education on Thursday, March 19, 1998, at 7:30 A.M. in the Assembly
Room of the New Hanover County Courthouse, 24 North Third Street, Wilmington, North Carolina.
Members present were: Commissioners Buzz Birzenieks; Ted Davis, Jr.; Charles R. Howell;
Vice-Chairman Robert G. Greer; Chairman William A. Caster; County Manager, Allen O’Neal;
County Attorney, Wanda M. Copley; and Clerk to the Board, Lucie F. Harrell.
Members present from the New Hanover County Board of Education were: Chairman
Charles M. Lineberry, Janice Cavenaugh; Oscar A. Graham; Donald S. Hayes; Edward B. Higgins;
Debbie Keck; and Nancy Wigley.
Chairman Lineberry called the Board of Education to order.
Chairman Caster called the Board of County Commissioners to order and welcomed the
members of the Board of Education. He expressed appreciation to the Board of Education for
attending the meeting to discuss the Pilots Ridge project.
DISCUSSION OF PILOTS RIDGE PROJECT
Chairman Caster reported several months ago, the Board of County Commissioners made a
commitment to build a Class A school/park complex on approximately 210 acres of land purchased
on Carolina Beach Road. Three schools and a park/recreational facility were to be constructed on
the site. The park/recreational facility would serve the School System as the primary user and the
community at-large as the secondary user. The County envisioned this type of joint complex would
provide more athletic and park facilities to the schools and the community. The architectural firm of
Boney Associates has been hired and is in the process of developing the design plan for the property.
The goal of the County is to be sure the athletic and park facilities are available to the schools
during the hours needed. Numerous meetings have been held with staff and the elected officials to
work out an acceptable agreement for operation and management of the athletic fields and park
facilities.
As discussion is held on this topic, it must be understood that New Hanover County is
responsible for constituencies beyond the School System that need athletic fields and park facilities.
The Commissioners feel the School System should be responsible for the buildings and a
defined landscaped area around the buildings. New Hanover County would be responsible for the
remaining facilities on the site through the County Parks Department. Priority use would be given
to the School System. The question to address is the mechanism to be used to manage the athletic
fields and park facilities. Discussion has been held on increasing the membership of the New Hanover
County Parks and Recreation Advisory Board to include an equal number of members appointed by
the Board of Education and the Board of County Commissioners. This board would manage the
scheduling for the schools and use by the community.
Vice-Chairman Greer advised that he serves on the Parks & Recreation Advisory Board and
stated if the site is developed into an athletic/park facility, it should be treated as other recreational
facilities in the county. If an individual calls and wants to schedule an event, one department can be
contacted. When being contacted by the Board of Education to purchase a site for a high school, the
concept of constructing three schools and a park/recreational facility to serve the schools and
community was developed. It was felt this concept would save money. There was no intention of
taking anything away from the schools or students. Under this plan, there should be more athletic
fields and park facilities. This is a win-win situation that would truly benefit the schools and
community.
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 363
Discussion followed on the draft interlocal agreement between New Hanover County and the
New Hanover County Board of Education. Chairman Lineberry advised that Draft 2A was provided
to both boards last Tuesday, and Draft B was another version prepared by the School Attorney, Bill
Hill. There is a great deal of difference in the interlocal agreements. Approximately a month ago,
the first interlocal agreement was forwarded to the Board of Education, and he, Debbie Keck, Bill
Hance, and Eddie Anderson reviewed the documents and made changes as reflected in Draft 2A.
Draft 2A proposes development of a Master Plan Site Committee with equal representation
from the New Hanover County School System and New Hanover County to develop the facilities.
Once the project is completed, the committee would be reconstituted to mutually and equally operate
the facilities at Pilots Ridge. This is part of the problem. The Board of Education does not want to
duplicate services and maintenance or have problems with scheduling athletic fields.
From the Board of Education’s point of view, school sites are more meaningful than just
buildings with a small ground area. School sites represent ballfields, parking lots, and playgrounds
as outlined by the N. C. Department of Public Instruction as part of the operation of a school. While
these athletic facilities will be constructed and maintained by New Hanover County with scheduling
priority given to the schools, this is vastly different from receiving a deed with the meets and bounds
description of the property showing the land belongs to the schools.
A majority of the members of the Board of Education believe that with equal control in the
form of a committee to oversee the facilities is the only way to assure that neither the county or
schools override each other in the operation of the facilities.
Draft B represents the status quo, which states the School System will cooperate with New
Hanover County on the operation of the facilities, but a deed will be provided as done with other sites
in the county.
Every member of the Board of Education and School Administrative Staff are 100 percent
behind the concept of combined facilities at this site. With the use of combined funds and facilities,
certain infrastructure can be shared which will benefit the schools, county, and community. The
fundamental concern of the Board of Education is the degree of control and operation of the facilities.
The original concept was for the New Hanover County Board of Education to receive a deed to the
property to operate, maintain, control and use the facilities in conjunction with county use outside
of school hours. There has been a conflict with New Hanover County in reaching an acceptable way
to operate the facilities.
Ms. Cavenaugh asked if Draft 2A would give control of the schools and county ballfields to
the central committee?
Chairman Lineberry advised the committee would serve as a liaison between the two boards
and would meet at least twice a year for scheduling and maintenance issues. Under Draft 2A,
scheduling and other issues would go through New Hanover County after the committee has met and
established guidelines. The School System knows in advance the schedule for the schools and once
these times are designated, the remaining time would be free for persons in the county to use the
facilities.
Commissioner Birzenieks reported when the project came to fruition, a promise was made
to the residents of New Hanover County during the school bond issue. The idea was to provide a
school/recreational concept that would provide additional athletic and park facilities to the schools
and citizens of the county. The operational details must be resolved, but it is paramount that both
boards keep the promise made to the citizens who supported the school bond issue.
Chairman Lineberry responded that he felt every elected official in the room would uphold
the promise made to the voters. He stated, in his opinion, Draft 2A accomplishes this goal.
Commissioner Davis commented on New Hanover County financing the project through
Certifications of Participation (COPS) and stated the property has to be used as collateral for the
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 364
loan. As long as the debt is in effect, the title of the property will have to remain in the name of New
Hanover County.
Chairman Lineberry advised the bond agreement does not require the title of the property to
remain in the name of New Hanover County.
Commissioner Davis reported the County agreement states that once the debt on the land for
the buildings is paid, the title of the property can be transferred to the Board of Education. However,
the Board of Education feels that once the buildings have been constructed, the title to property and
remaining debt should be transferred to the schools.
Commissioner Davis asked if the County can transfer the title and debt under the COPS
financing?
County Attorney Copley explained that collateral had to be provided to obtain the COPS
financing. If the County should default on payments, the bank would expect to collect the collateral.
When negotiating the financing, it was asked if each piece of property could be titled to the Board
of Education once the debt had been paid for that parcel. The Bond Counsel and Local Government
Commission did not have a problem with this procedure. Hence, as payments are made and parcels
are paid, the County can convey the title to the Board of Education; however, until that time, the
property must remain as collateral for the loan.
Ms. Cavenaugh advised the members of the Board of Education were not aware of the
collateral requirements until the County had already entered into the financing agreement.
Chairman Lineberry advised without creating a default on the bond or debt, the County can
transfer the property to the Board of Education subject to the debt.
County Attorney Copley advised that discussion has been held on preparing a deed subject
to the debt, but what would the provisions of the deed be? Would it be the footprint of the schools
or the athletic fields. These decisions will have to be decided by both boards, and if an agreement can
be reached, the County could prepare a deed subject to the debt. The primary issue with Bond
Counsel and the financing institution is if the County should default on payments, the property could
be taken as collateral for the loan.
Chairman Caster stated that he felt the deed issue could be resolved.
Mr. Higgins asked if the collateral was for school construction bonds?
County Attorney Copley responded the collateral was for school construction bonds, not for
other County indebtedness.
Mr. Higgins stated if the School System is responsible for the building, he did not understand
the problem with transferring the title of the property to the Board of Education.
County Attorney Copley read the following statement from the Bond Order authorizing the
issuance of $125,000,000 school bonds:
The Board of County Commissioners determines as necessary to provide school facilities
including the acquisition and construction of new school facilities, the improvement and
expansion of existing school facilities, the acquisition and installation of furnishings and
equipment, the acquisition of interest and real property, and raise the money required to pay
the capital costs of the improvements.
Vice-Chairman Greer read the following section of the draft prepared by New Hanover
County:
The County shall lease to the Board of Education for consideration of $1.00 per year the
school buildings and associated landscaping until release of the school buildings and
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 365
associated landscaping from the initial bond security documents. At that time, the County
shall transfer to the Board of Education a deed in fee simple to the intended school buildings
and associated landscaping along with required access easements.
Vice-Chairman Greer stated this means the Board of Education will have the footprint for
$1.00 per year until the debt is reduced enough to transfer the property to the Board of Education.
Chairman Lineberry noted the Board of Education would require a deed or deed substitute.
A lease with a promise of a deed in the future substitutes for a deed today, which is acceptable;
however, all seven members do not agree on this point. The problem is the footprint of the building
not including the ballfields. He stated the plan developed by the architect will provide the necessary
information to determine the number of athletic fields. When hearing the presentation from the
architect, 15 acres will be devoted to a 50 foot buffer around the property, which represents 7% of
the property. Approximately 5% will be used for retention ponds, 10% to 15% for roadways, 15 to
20 acres for a stadium, 46 acres for the high school, 28 acres for the middle school, and 18 acres for
the elementary school. These percentages do not include parking spaces. Once the plan is reviewed
by the committee, the amount of land left will dictate what will be placed on the ground. From this
point, a line can be drawn designating the school property and county property. At this time, an
agreement will be needed to utilize the property for mutual use by New Hanover County and the
School System.
Chairman Caster advised the County views the recreational portion as part of the County
Parks System and the schools under the supervision of the Board of Education.
Chairman Lineberry objected to be considered a part of the County Parks System.
Vice-Chairman Greer stated the Commissioners thought this was a unique idea that would
benefit both the schools and county. Instead of giving the Board of Education 40 acres to construct
a high school, the County purchased 210 acres so athletic fields could be planned and developed. The
issue is whether both boards want this concept to work as a unique system that will allow the
ballfields to be part of the County Parks System.
Chairman Lineberry spoke on this being the first time the Board of Education has been
informed that the athletic fields will be part of the County Parks System, which would not be
acceptable. Normally, athletic fields are dedicated to the School System. The members of the Board
of Education do not want to go through another experience like Legion Stadium. Also, what will
happen when other persons are serving as County Commissioners?
Vice-Chairman Greer responded that a contract could be written to assure the School System
that the athletic fields will be available to the them when needed.
Chairman Lineberry read the following statement from Paragraph 7, on Page 6 of the draft
prepared by the County:
All scheduled uses by the schools and county on behalf of the public for use of these facilities
shall be in accordance with the Master Schedule developed and approved by the New
Hanover County Parks and Recreation Advisory Board.
Chairman Lineberry read the following statement from the other version:
With input from the Superintendent of Schools or his designee, and the County Manager,
school schedules will be included in the schedule to be submitted twice annually.
Chairman Lineberry reported that two members of the Board of Education served on the
Legion Stadium Committee as non-voting members; therefore, their opinions were not of real value.
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 366
Chairman Caster advised this was not correct and stated the elected officials on the Legion
Stadium Committee were voting members.
Mr. Graham spoke on being told that he could not vote on the Legion Stadium Committee,
and Mr. Higgins stated he was told this at the beginning of the process, but was later able to vote.
Ms. Cavenaugh advised when the School System relinquishes its control over a facility that
is used by the students, the Board of Education falls to the mercy of another group that can hold the
schools hostage. This is what happened with Legion Stadium. As a member of the Board of
Education, she feels the students needs must be protected first with all others being secondary.
Vice-Chairman Greer suggested not relating this project to Legion Stadium because the rules
and guidelines are being drawn to control the new athletic fields. The Board of Education and County
Commissioners must be good stewards of the students; however, the Commissioners must be good
stewards to every citizen in New Hanover County. This project will allow the athletic fields to be
used during the entire year, not just four or five months by the schools.
Chairman Lineberry objected to anyone thinking that the Board of Education had limited the
use of ballfields to the schools. He stated by law the principal of the school is required to maintain
the security and safety of the students on the campus. The campus would include surrounding
ballfields and areas normally associated with a school under education specifications. If the Parks
Department controls the use of athletic fields, what will happen if a principal goes on County property
and tells a coach to leave the ballfield? The coach will call the Parks Department and complain about
being told to leave the field. Very simply, the Board of Education cannot accept anything less than
a deed and equal participation for mutual use of the athletic facilities.
Mr. Hayes asked if the N. C. Department of Public Instruction outlines specifically what
amenities are needed by a high school?
Chairman Lineberry responded the N. C. Department of Public Instruction has specific
education and parks specifications that must be given to the architect.
Attorney Bill Hill, representing the Board of Education, reported the members of the Board
of Education were bound by State Statute to develop a new school based upon North Carolina Public
School Facility Guidelines. These guidelines state that a high school must have 30 acres plus one acre
for each 100 students; therefore, an enrollment of 1,500 students would require 45 acres. This is the
footprint that the architect must use to develop the site plan for the buildings, landscaping, parking
and athletic facilities. When the plan was developed for Pilots Ridge, he envisioned a 45 acre tract
of land with an extra area designed for athletic fields. An interlocal agreement would be drawn for
joint use of the athletic fields. The School System must provide the N. C. Department of Public
Instruction with the designated area for the school site. Later, additional parcels can be designated
through an interlocal agreement for joint use of other areas.
Vice-Chairman Greer asked if the N. C. Department of Public Instruction would permit a line
to be drawn around the athletic fields with the Board of Education leasing the fields back to the
County?
Mr. Hill responded this could probably be done if the details were clearly presented to the N.
C. Department of Public Instruction.
Mr. Higgins spoke on being concerned about the actual competition fields for the schools, not
the other athletic fields. In his opinion, the schools should have control over the competition fields.
He spoke in favor of providing other fields for use by the public.
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 367
Vice-Chairman Greer stated at the beginning of the meeting, he felt that everything but the
buildings should belong to New Hanover County; however, after hearing the comments, he felt that
additional acreage could be incorporated for the ballfields with the schools leasing these fields to the
county for $1.00, which would allow the fields to remain under one system.
Chairman Lineberry stated a deed to the property should be received at the completion of
construction. If another agreement was in place stating that once the debt was paid, the deed would
be transferred to the Board of Education, all seven members would agree to a perpetual lease.
Vice-Chairman Greer stated if some type of agreement is not reached, the County and School
System should revert to the old system whereby the schools receive the necessary acreage for
construction of new schools, and the County will continue to build parks contingent upon the
availability of funding. Under this process, the citizens and taxpayers will be the losers because a
joint project of this type would save money.
Chairman Lineberry advised the Board of Education has notified the Board of County
Commissioners and County Staff that the members are 100% committed to the concept; however,
the school property should not be subjected to control by the County Parks Department.
Mr. Hayes spoke in favor of a joint concept, but stated any interlocal agreement should be
based on the State requirements for operating the athletic fields.
Commissioner Davis stated the Board of Education does not want any school facility under
control of the County Parks Department.
Chairman Lineberry agreed with the statement by Commissioner Davis and stated this does
not mean that the County Parks Department should discontinue its current services.
Commissioner Birzenieks requested Vice-Chairman Greer to inform all persons present about
the original concept for the project since he was not serving on the Board of County Commissioners
at that time.
Vice-Chairman Greer reported originally the School System located the Efird property across
from Echo Farms on Carolina Beach Road for placement of a new high school. The County began
negotiations on that tract of land. During that time, the County was contacted about the Pilots Ridge
land as a new site for the new high school. As staff studied and reviewed the tract of land, it was
decided that additional acres could be purchased to allow for construction of three schools as well
as joint cooperation for additional athletic fields and a park area. It was felt the N. C. Department
of Instruction would be in favor of the concept, which would be a show place and an example of how
counties and school systems can work together to provide a quality school complex in a more
economical manner.
Ms. Cavenaugh expressed appreciation to the Board of County Commissioners for the effort
given to prepare the concept, but stated she felt the boards have a philosophical difference that could
not be resolved. This does not imply that both boards do not have good intentions. If some decision
is not made, the construction date for the new high school will be detained.
Mr. Graham stated the Board of Education feels the County has been very supportive of the
schools; however, the proposed plan by the County will violate the State law regarding education
specifications. The plan must be submitted with the required playground and athletic facilities to the
N. C. Department of Public Instruction.
Chairman Lineberry, again, reiterated that the Board of Education was 100% committed to
the original concept recognizing that the plan will relinquish some control of the site; however, the
participation must be equal.
Chairman Caster requested both boards to consider appointing an advisory board just for
Pilots Ridge project.
NEW HANOVER COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERSBOOK 26
SPECIAL MEETING, MARCH 19, 1998PAGE 368
Ms. Cavenaugh stated as an individual member of the Board of Education, she would be
willing to have equal representation on a decision-making board.
Chairman Lineberry noted there are facilities that the County wants to use on school sites.
Citizens of the community expect to use the school athletic fields when not in use by the schools.
Problems have been experienced between the County and School System about the use of fields. It
would be ideal to develop a new concept to operate all facilities throughout New Hanover County.
Unfortunately, the Board of Education must move forward with the Pilots Ridge project to finish
construction of the new high school in a timely manner. If a good model can be developed to operate
the site at Pilots Ridge, the model can be used throughout the county. Once this concept has been
accomplished, there should be equal participation in control, both sides will have to come to
consensus on the issues involving maintenance and other related issues.
Further discussion followed on the problems experienced at Legion Stadium. Commissioner
Birzenieks stressed the importance of resolving this matter and he encouraged both boards to request
the City of Wilmington to transfer Legion Stadium to New Hanover County.
Vice-Chairman Greer expressed concern for the architect continuing to design a plan to
accommodate the school/park complex when only the high school site should be considered if an
agreement cannot be reached.
Mr. Bill Hance reported the architect was working on a Master Plan. Once the facilities are
located on the acreage, the firm will begin performing the necessary work on the school site. After
both boards see the Master Plan, it will be easier for everyone to envision the plan for the entire site.
A lengthy discussion followed on the inability of both boards to reach an agreement and the
need to schedule another meeting on Saturday, March 21, 1998.
Dr. Dale Martin, Superintendent of Schools, advised the deed issue can be resolved; therefore,
the question is whether the idea of a special board of equal participation for this project during the
next five years would be acceptable to both boards.
Ms. Cavenaugh spoke in favor of a voting board with complete control over the athletic sites,
equal membership, and a sunset provision. She recommended that both boards discuss this idea with
their respective attorneys before scheduling another meeting.
Attorney Hill advised that he did not feel the boards were ready to schedule another meeting.
He suggested allowing the architect to proceed with developing the Master Plan because the contours
of the land will dictate and resolve some of the issues. He noted that an agreement can be negotiated
to designate a certain number of acres for the schools with the remaining land for the athletic/park
facilities. After seeing the Master Plan, both boards may feel differently.
County Attorney Copley agreed with Attorney Hill and stated seeing the plan for use of the
land will assist the boards in resolving the issues of impasse.
After further discussion, both boards generally agreed to allow the architect to proceed with
developing the Master Plan with a meeting scheduled at a later date to discuss the issues of concern.
ADJOURNMENT
Chairman Caster adjourned the Work Session at 9:30 A.M.
Respectfully submitted,
Lucie F. Harrell
Clerk to the Board